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by adrianN 2499 days ago
China should just start a carbon tax and apply tariffs on imports from countries that don't have an equivalent system in place.
6 comments

For more details on this excellent idea by Nobel Prize winning William Nordhaus: https://issues.org/climate-clubs-to-overcome-free-riding/

This idea is one that has me slightly less pessimistic about the chances of the world actually doing something about climate change. We don't have to have 195 countries agreeing to a plan and have huge advantages accrue to cheaters who don't follow the plan. We can start with a small but significant number and it's the cheaters that lose out.

China is the world’s largest greenhouse gas emitter. So its a cute idea, but countervailing tariffs would be swift and deserved.
per-capita China emits about half of what the US does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

If you believe numbers coming out of China I don't know what to tell you. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-power-emissions/fal...
Given that US emissions are more than double China's per capita, I only have to believe that China's numbers have less than a 100% error.

Satellite monitoring of CO2 emissions has a pretty wide error bar, but it's not that wide.

Additionally it just simply makes sense since anecdotally we are aware that many chinese live in extremely rural situations with no heating/cooling, or live in dense buildings with shared resources.

These things cost money, and the median Chinese consumer does not have the budget for these items.

Is that also how the environment calculates the impact? As if per-capita has any bearing on the final outcome.
"China is worse" is a particularly horrible excuse for America doing nothing given those per-capita numbers.

"America is worse per capita" is a bad excuse for China to do nothing.

The environment knows nothing about "China" or "USA" either, these are just arbitrary groupings of people. You can compare the whole of the USA with arbitrary subsets of China, and find that the USA is the biggest polluter in absolute terms. Of course it's as pointless as comparing the whole of China with the whole of US, what counts is the per capita emissions. Qed.
Well, it certainly doesn't calculate it by political territory or tribal affilliation.
If you pee in the river once a month, but the municipality of the town upstream decides to release its entire sewage into it, does the river calculate the impact per-capita?
If you kill somebody once a month but a government near you decides to start a war, does it make your murder ethically acceptable?
Terrible analogy. Someone making a campfire, like humans did for thousands of years, isn't doing something remotely as bad as committing murder.

The analogy only works if what a single person is doing is inconsequential if they are the only ones doing it. Murder certainly does not belong there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Murder isn't a good example of it.

I really hate people think that China is so green, while they are building coal mines in other countries.

They just import it without pollution in China, but it's happening elsewhere.

So a carbon tax like you suggest would do more harm.

Are you approaching this from an environmental POV?

I think China is targeting specific products, not thinking of this the same way I think you're thinking of this.

Environmental protections would have been a much more justifiable motivation for attempting to modify the behavior of Chinese exporters and even the playing field for US competitors who must comply with environmental regs that Chinese firms can ignore.

But Trump's goal with the tariffs was simply to destroy economic cooperation between the US and China, so that peaceful business entanglements would be less able to prevent escalation toward war.

This is a genius tactical move. It gives them a claim to the moral high ground and splits off Europe as an ally.

This move is also available to Trump, but there's no way he'd ever take it.

It'd also be a genius tactic to adopt by the Democratic presidential candidate's. Trump's trade war is quite popular with the American public; the presidential candidates could be hurt quite badly by opposing it directly.

The trade war is one of the most hated policies of the President. It polls worse than the immigration camps (sadly).

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2622

You are citing a 3 month old poll.

Actually, 2/3 of Americans support the President's trade war.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/support-free...

What? It looks like your source claims the exact opposite of what you do. What am I missing?
From my citation:

> “While Trump plays a game of chicken on tariffs, a record number of Americans believe that free trade is good,” says Democratic pollster Jeff Horwitt at Hart Research Associates.

Horwitt is spinning his poll to make it seem like free trade is not what the trade war will result in. A majority of Americans support Trump. Don't make the 2016 mistake of trusting polls again...

>Horwitt is spinning his poll to make it seem like free trade is not what the trade war will result in.

And you're spinning it as 2/3rds supporting Trump's tariffs. Which is not the poll's question.

>A majority of Americans support Trump

What has this got to do with anything, even if true? Which it is not, see below.

>Don't make the 2016 mistake of trusting polls again...

What 2016 mistake? 2 million more voted against Trump than votd for him. He won because the electoral college is effective gerrymandered because of demographic changes. So you have zero basis to state that a majority of Americans support Trump for now.

I mean, you're the one quoting a poll, and saying it shows that 2/3rds support Trump's tariffs.

Which is wrong on two levels, first, that's not even what the poll shows, second, even if it did, if you're right about polls being wrong, then the poll is useless to measure public sentiment.

Also, you cannot just make up things without telling us how you arrived at those assertions.

The trade war specifically is not addressed in the poll; “free trade” is, and it has broad support. Free trade is directly the opposite of a tariff policy, so superficially that's directly contrary to your characterization. While you could argue that the policy is designed to produce an outcome which would feature free trade as a future state, there's nothing in the poll that suggests that the public supports that position. So, no, while there is a potential argument that your source doesn't directly contradict the point you cite it for, it absolutely does not support that point even a little bit.
That also doesn't show that the American public broadly supports the trade war, it shows that a particular demographic that broadly supported Trump before the trade war broadly also supports the trade war, just a little less than it still supports Trump (78% vs. 79%.)

If that holds for other groups (trade war support just below Trump support) it would indicate America broadly opposes the trade war, as Trump's at <45% support in current polling.

If Trump had more than a five second attention span we’d have the Border Adjustment Tax right now and be done with it. Maybe make it carbon based later.