[zwaps]

Ah sure. So it's basically one of these concepts of what a modern city should be. You have cars and traffic completely underground, on top a relative open area with shops on different levels and high rise buildings for living (as to have public space). It seems like a great idea conceptually, because it affords much space to pedestrians, green spots and still allows accessibility.

But it failed to be attractive to the intended audience - well off young workers and families. It is not a slum and never was, but it did not turn out have the demand.

If you look at it now, it seems downright ugly. There's space, yes, but it's so much concrete, so many bleak looking high rises. It certainly isn't "beautiful" in the sense of the rest of Paris (except if you appreciate that sort of architecture, which I actually do).

[dmix]

Toronto built a complex for urban workers which was designed to be highly walkable “Towers in a Park” approach meant for 1950s young “swinging single” workers, the quintessential urban planning done by cities of the era, but before long it turned into an urban ghetto where drug dealers and petty crime thrived because there was poor access for police vehicles and other types of law enforcement with the towering buildings and narrow walkways shielding any bad behaviour.

Which is sad because it’s next to one of the nicest neighbourhoods in the city (Cabbagetown).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._James_Town?wprov=sfti1

[tom_mellior]

> drug dealers and petty crime thrived because there was poor access for police vehicles and other types of law enforcement

Interesting take, not supported by the Wikipedia article. Don't Canadian police have access to bikes, motorcycles, or (gasp) horses that might access areas where cars can't go?

What the Wikipedia article does say is this: "The apartments lacked appeal though, poorly constructed, and with a lack of amenities to support the density spike; many prospective tenants instead moved to suburban houses in the developing areas of Scarborough, Etobicoke and North York. The area quickly became much poorer. Four buildings were later built by the province to provide public housing."

Shoddy housing attracts those who can't afford better, and poverty breeds petty crime, that much is true. Blaming it on missing car access is original. Personally I would be more worried about access difficulties for firefighters.

[dmix]

I lived next to it for a number of years and often visited friends who lived there. I’m very familiar with it and the problems it has.

The idea of these concrete enclosed blocks of land being havens for crime and gangs is hardly controversial.

This isn’t the open walkable streets of some nice European city or even downtown Toronto. It’s isolated and poorly maintained. Basically what people have come to expect from city run and planned housing from the past generations.

[PhasmaFelis]

I don't think they're disputing that it's crime-ridden, just that it's crime-ridden because police cars can't get in.

[dmix]

That's not the only reason why but it's a big one. It's about visual protection with lots of narrow dark alleys and enclosed spaces connecting to endless stairwells. Making surveillance far more difficult and easy for people to disappear into it the minute a watcher sees police enter.

Don't underestimate just how lazy and safety obsessed Cops, so they'd need a partner to go with them to enter on foot.

Police do bike through once in a while when it's summer, usually in groups of 4-6 but Toronto isn't always accessible by bike during winter. Plus I rarely saw bike cops at night like you do cars cruising around.

These isolated places with towering buildings, tons of concrete, and only roads deep outside on the edges creates an excellent environment for shootings, robberies, and drug dealing to take place.

Either way it increases the effort it takes and almost all of them have full time security on site as the problems are constant.

Down the road there are 3 large buildings one by one lined on a major road which are equally in disrepair and impoverished, and they dont have people constantly hanging out side against the walls next to rear stairwell entrances, while everyone else is scared to go there at night. The keep their business inside or out of view.

There's a hundred examples of these places that are set up like this in NYC and Chicago.

Cabrini Green had the same issue with too many enclosed areas where people hung around constantly. The design was counter to open and friendly:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini%E2%80%93Green_Homes?ol...

[zwaps]

Here in Germany we have a similar issue in some of these project areas.

They are called "Angsträume", translation is "spaces of fear". Dark, secluded spaces, staircases and so forth, where people feel unsafe.

[pas]

Hm, what's the difference between St. James Town and Békásmegyer? (The latter is perfectly safe, yet looks the same. And it's not a fancy upscale area either.)

https://www.google.com/maps/place/St.+James+Town,+Toronto,+O...

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Budapest,+B%C3%A9k%C3%A1sm...

> These isolated places

How are they isolated? There are perfectly fine streets and parking lots there.

What do you mean roads only on the edges?

And where are the dark alleys? Are there no public street lights?

> and they dont have people constantly hanging out side against the walls next to rear stairwell entrances, while everyone else is scared to go there at night.

What? So what if people are hanging out somewhere? Are they disturbing the tenants? Do they do something illegal? Do people report them to law enforcement? Does law enforcement act on this?

[pas]

How .. how can anyone believe police cars can't get in?

People use trucks to move their stuff/furniture there. There are proper paved streets, parking places and so on. You can check on any satellite view service.

[swebs]

That sounds almost exactly like the Eastern Pasila neighborhood of Helsinki. I'll just quote Wikipedia:

>In the ranking of the best places where to live in Helsinki ... Eastern Pasila is ranked 92nd, out of 94 different parts of Helsinki.