When you take out a loan or credit card you sign a legal document agreeing to all of the various terms. You don't sign anything when visiting a website.
Credit cards --- bona fide, revolving-credit credit cards --- are so completely avoidable in modern life that I'm a little mystified as to why people get them at all. I couldn't for most of my adult life (weak credit score) and feel like I've dodged a bullet. I have a (secured) card with a low limit now, just to rent cars, but it's gotten a lot easier to rent cars with debit cards now, too.
Heading off a routine objection to this observation: I've had a family with kids since I was 22, and spent most of the years prior to the Matasano acquisition living, if not paycheck-to-paycheck, at least pretty close to it.
I'll add: I don't know what my credit score is now --- it's probably better than it was, since I've had that dumb car-renting card for 6+ years --- but, knowing that my credit was bad enough that I couldn't get a non-secured card, including from my own bank after the wires for the Matasano acquisition cleared, and knowing that I had at the time a house and a car and all that stuff, and really no trouble ever getting a lease for any place I could afford the rent for, I find myself wondering a lot how much credit scores actually matter. If I'd thought that when I was 22, I'd say, "welp, I just don't have enough life experience to know". But I'm 42 now, and I have a bit of a hard time projecting to a point where I can see a clear reason to give a shit what number Equifax generates for me. Like, maybe I'll care a lot when I'm 62? I kind of doubt it, though.
> Credit cards --- bona fide, revolving-credit credit cards --- are so completely avoidable in modern life that I'm a little mystified as to why people get them at all.
Cash back and other rewards. They can add up if planned for properly—they aren't a life-changing amount of money or anything, but they're nice. Effectively, if you aren't using a high-fee card like American Express, you're subsidizing those of us who do use them (much to the chagrin of merchants). It's better to be on the receiving end of that subsidy, not the giving end.
> I find myself wondering a lot how much credit scores actually matter
I feel similarly mystified sometimes as I've never needed one. When my mom mentions paying off a CC bill, I think "why not just use debit?" Maybe she'll have to delay purchases or occasionally miss out on something, but it ends up being the same money.
There are also people who are below the income line of paycheck-to-paycheck, people with addictions, people who have jobs or lives with risk of injury and thus medical bills or unpaid leave for recovery, people who have a big family with needs they have to pay or travel for... and I feel people can use CCs because rich people culture pressures them to cling to things and the idea of being "successful" to attract peers and love interests... but that's just my subjective analysis.
Without a credit card, how do you buy anything online, or sign up for any SAAS? (the ones that don't accept Paypal, which is most). Using pre-paid Visa cards are possible sometimes (but not always accepted) but are also a hassle to manage as a primary payment method.
Booking travel online? All credit cards.
Renting a hotel or car can be next to impossible without a credit card to put down. Once I had to pay a $500 deposit to stay in a hotel for 1 night because I didn't have a credit card they could put on file.
We're talking about actual revolving credit credit cards, not debit cards. I understand that you need access to the Visa payment system to function in modern society, but you can trivially get access to that simply with a checking account.
It is absolutely not impossible to book a hotel room or rent a car without a credit card. This is a weird thing that HN seems to believe about consumer finance that has not all that much basis in reality. I book rooms exclusively on debit cards, and doubt there is really a hotel that will refuse to do that. You might not be able to book a car with Hertz, but who cares? Other major rental car companies take debit cards.
The Debit/Visa cards work for lots of things, but last I tried most places wouldn't accept them to have on file for damage deposits and such (hotels/cars). I have to admit, I haven't tried for about 5 years. A debit/visa is no different than a prepaid visa. On an actual credit card, they can push the charge through even if you don't have the money available (pushing you over your limit if needed). Visa/Debit and Prepaid Visa's can't go over the available balance.
I'm not sure about the sentiment on HN, but I'm speaking from personal experience. Any time I've tried to use a Debit/Visa when checking into a hotel they've required me to pay a deposit that was returned on checkout.
You can easily get through modern life without taking out a loan from the financial system. I'm 41 years old and I've never had a home or car loan. I have credit cards, but I easily could have gotten by using debit cards instead.
So your financial history is being tracked and scrutinized. At 41, you might be able to live and die without this being a big problem. In my 20s, I worry about my ability to secure healthcare and other such necessities in my later life based on a social credit score which includes financial credit history I never opted into. Just getting on a lease is enough for a credit pull. It's unavoidable.
This is just false. Lots of real estate organizations require a credit pull as part of your application. You aren't renting from the owner/landlord but from the property manager; there's no notion of just "pay a bigger deposit to make up for your lack of credit history".
It's also pretty much impossible to get through modern society without a credit card if you want to do anything crazy like, rent a car or reserve a hotel room.
That has not been my experience or the experience of many people that I know. Property managers care about risk. The risk of someone with low/no credit can almost always be mitigated with cash.
I discuss issues with renting cars and hotel rooms in sibling threads.
You are ignoring the fact that not everyone's circumstances and opportunities are the same. You keep saying "easy" as if its an objective fact. Saying "I did this thing with these limits so anyone can" is dishonest and the implication meant by that is hostile to others.
Are you trying to say "not everyone has the cash on hand to put down a bigger security deposit?" If that's what you are trying to say, just say it. If that's not what you are trying to say then I don't understand your comment.
Now, it's nearly impossible unless you want a slumlord.
Maximum security deposits are set by the state. In my state it's illegal to require more than two months rent as a security deposit. Security deposit is defined by statute, you can't just call it "rent prepayment."
You can absolutely do both of those things. I book and check in with debit cards routinely, and there are major carriers that rent cars on debit cards.
Yes, some of those things (not the hotel room though, a debit card will do just fine for that) become more complicated without a credit card. But that is because you are, essentially, asking someone to loan you money. As soon as you start doing that it's reasonable for them to want to participate in a system that helps them understand how risky you are.
Plus, all that being said, you can still do all those things without a credit card. It'll just be somewhat more complicated.