[harryh]

You can easily get through modern life without taking out a loan from the financial system. I'm 41 years old and I've never had a home or car loan. I have credit cards, but I easily could have gotten by using debit cards instead.

[soulofmischief]

So your financial history is being tracked and scrutinized. At 41, you might be able to live and die without this being a big problem. In my 20s, I worry about my ability to secure healthcare and other such necessities in my later life based on a social credit score which includes financial credit history I never opted into. Just getting on a lease is enough for a credit pull. It's unavoidable.

[harryh]

It's easy to sign a lease with no credit history. At most they'll just ask for a bigger security deposit.

[ticmasta]

This is just false. Lots of real estate organizations require a credit pull as part of your application. You aren't renting from the owner/landlord but from the property manager; there's no notion of just "pay a bigger deposit to make up for your lack of credit history".

It's also pretty much impossible to get through modern society without a credit card if you want to do anything crazy like, rent a car or reserve a hotel room.

[tptacek]

This has not been my experience, renting in Chicago, Ann Arbor, and San Francisco (around 2001).

[astura]

2001, sure.

It's no longer 2001, we live in the era of big data now.

[tptacek]

That's silly. Credit scores were as easy to obtain in 2001 as they are now.

[harryh]

That has not been my experience or the experience of many people that I know. Property managers care about risk. The risk of someone with low/no credit can almost always be mitigated with cash.

I discuss issues with renting cars and hotel rooms in sibling threads.

[soulofmischief]

This may be true, but it's out-of-band. We need frameworks which ensure a level playing field, not tricks and loopholes which only allow the most cunning or fortunate of those with little credit to succeed in life.

[hestipod]

You are ignoring the fact that not everyone's circumstances and opportunities are the same. You keep saying "easy" as if its an objective fact. Saying "I did this thing with these limits so anyone can" is dishonest and the implication meant by that is hostile to others.

[harryh]

Are you trying to say "not everyone has the cash on hand to put down a bigger security deposit?" If that's what you are trying to say, just say it. If that's not what you are trying to say then I don't understand your comment.

[hestipod]

I am saying that amongst many other things which are self evident. Not everyone has the situation and finances you do. Not everyone has the same buying markets and opportunities you do. Not everyone can exist within their social, family, and work situations with your "truths" and "rules". One can exist without using electricity...doesn't make it comfortable or practical AND it's not an argument for the idea of entering into a third party holding and selling and not securing your info in order to get it.

I don't really understand why you are being defensive of bad practices and policies with the "nobody makes you sign up" argument. I never understand why people defend these things and blame the victims of them.

[harryh]

many other things which are self evident.

I'm not being defensive. I just honestly do not understand what point you are trying to make. I think that the things that you think are self evident are not self evident to me. Perhaps that is my failing. shrug

[astura]

15-20 years ago, yes, absolutely. Maybe even 10.

Now, it's nearly impossible unless you want a slumlord.

Maximum security deposits are set by the state. In my state it's illegal to require more than two months rent as a security deposit. Security deposit is defined by statute, you can't just call it "rent prepayment."

[harryh]

So everyone with bad or no credit is locked out of the rental market? That....doesn't make a lot of sense. Where are they living?

[soulofmischief]

I apologize for breaking up our communication across this thread but you've made several fair points I would like to address.

Even my last apartment required a cosigner because of my lack of credit history. I don't have any family to turn to so I had to rely on the family of someone else. Many people don't even have that good fortune.

Less directly, I was illegally evicted from my first apartment (3 days to move out over burst pipes in a multi-unit dwelling which caused our unit to flood) and due to not having the credit to get a loan to hire a lawyer to defend me against a clear cut case, I was blacklisted by my vengeful landlord and banned from renting anywhere in that city. Only lease I managed to get in that city after that was because I was friends with the leasing agent. I also lost hundreds of dollars in furniture including some vintage pieces due to getting only 3 days notice to vacate.

This set me back tremendously; as you can see it's a bit of a feedback loop between bad credit and bad rental experiences.

[clairity]

is this CA and is this a pay in 3 days or quit notice you're talking about? because if it is, you don't have to leave in 3 days. you can wait for a default judgement and then the sheriff to come actually post notice to leave. that gets you about a month, not 3 days, which should be enough time to find a new place and move everything. burst pipes means you have a habitability defense, so you could have represented yourself in eviction court based on that, which at the very least would have given you more time to move out, if not compensation and the right to stay.

[astura]

With friends/family, informal roommate arrangement, or renting substandard housing from slumlords. Either that or they have a cosigner.

[tptacek]

This is pretty clearly not the case. I rented in relatively hot markets --- there was actual bidding for the SOMA loft we got back around 2000! --- and I had bad credit (put differently: when I was renting, I would have had better credit had I no contact with the consumer credit system whatsoever), and my credit score never once kept me from getting a lease, or even changed the terms of a lease.

[harryh]

Based on everything I have read, as well as my own personal experience, I think you are exaggerating the seriousness of the situation. Do you have any evidence of this being the case?

[soulofmischief]

I've been denied tons of every day things because of no credit history. I can't even get a credit card.

[stanmancan]

Everything is easier when you have money in the bank. Unfortunately that's not the case for everyone.

[cowpig]

Well, if it worked out for you I guess that settles the debate!

Wait, I think it's _disproof_ that relies on one _counter_ example. I guess it's easy to get confused.

[harryh]

It's easy for anyone. Credit cards aren't an essential service necessary for modern life.

[ticmasta]

>> you can still do all those things without a credit card. It'll just be somewhat more complicated.

You certainly can't show up at a hotel and check in without a credit card at any hotel I'd consider stay at

You also can't rent a car from a major carrier without someone's credit card securing it

[harryh]

I have personally paid for hotel rooms at incredibly popular major hotel chains using a debit card.

You can also definitely rent a car some some of the major carriers without a credit card. See: https://www.bankrate.com/personal-finance/smart-money/can-yo...

Definitely not all locations all the time (see: "somewhat more complicated").

[tptacek]

You can absolutely do both of those things. I book and check in with debit cards routinely, and there are major carriers that rent cars on debit cards.

[dwd]

There's one gotcha though with using a Debit card for car hire where you cannot access the money for the holding deposit until the hold is released. Learnt that the hard way.

With a credit card it's not money you intended to use so you don't care - unlike cash in your debit account.

[stanmancan]

Booking a hotel without a credit card requires a deposit. I've had to pay up to a $500 deposit on a hotel stay before. Yeah you get the money back after, but not everyone has that type of money laying around.

[jjeaff]

Not to mention that the deposit will not be available until 3 to 5 business days after you check out. It usually takes that long for the release to go through. (because obviously in this day and age, technology is not yet fast enough to process a transaction in mere seconds).

[tptacek]

You can often (maybe even usually) ask to have deposits and authorizations waived.

[fortran77]

Renting a car; renting a hotel room, being able to travel easily and spend money in a foreign country.

[harryh]

Yes, some of those things (not the hotel room though, a debit card will do just fine for that) become more complicated without a credit card. But that is because you are, essentially, asking someone to loan you money. As soon as you start doing that it's reasonable for them to want to participate in a system that helps them understand how risky you are.

Plus, all that being said, you can still do all those things without a credit card. It'll just be somewhat more complicated.