[paganel]

The state of the German IT industry outside of a few select places (Berlin, mostly) is what makes me very pessimistic about the future of its car industry.

They (meaning the big 3: VW, BMW and Mercedes) apparently still think that building the best engines/transmissions and being the best at putting them all together is all it takes in order to make a modern car, unfortunately I think EVs will be more about software and the way said software can best manage the car's power resources. From far away Tesla looks like it's doing quite a nice job with its EV software, the Germans, not so much.

If it matters I've never worked in Germany but as an IT person/programmer living in Europe I've followed the German IT industry pretty constantly as Germany is one of the best countries in terms of quality of life (I know it's not perfect, but it sure beats my Eastern European country). Unfortunately for me its backwards IT industry (again, as seen from the outside) keeps me away from it.

[PinguTS]

Funfact: more than 30% value in a car is software, which is highly interconnected via various type of networks namely, LIN, CAN, MOST, FlexRay, Ethernet. Most current premium cars have more than 10 of those networks and around 100 to 130 ECUs that talk to each other.

So much about: they don't know about software.

BTW: The difference between IT and automotive aka embedded is that embedded should work even without DevOps. Well, IT we know.

[rb2k_]

Having worked at a German company (in Germany) that creates tooling for that kind of software development.

They had a huge smalltalk program that created embedded C code (AUTOSAR/MISRA if I remember correctly). Tests only ran manually and the coverage wasn't particularly high. I don't recall any automations that would have stopped you from saving new code that breaks tests to the smalltalk image.

Even though it 'worked', I wouldn't say this whole system excelled at what it did. Lots of manual QA.

So technically it worked, but it certainly was in poor shape from an automation perspective. It was my job as the mostly unsupervised intern to fix that. Granted, that was 10 years ago, but talking to some of my friends around Stuttgart, things move at a glacial pace :)

[guitarbill]

Seems to be true in the UK, too. I've heard bad things about e.g. Jaguar Land Rover. As another comment says, this is probably an issue with the embedded industry as a whole. There are great tech companies you can work for, which usually have a very high standard (ARM seems to be great).

Stuttgart/Baden-Württemberg is quite conservative. The real mystery for me was why their engineering pride of doing things correctly doesn't translate to the tech industry. I don't have experience in Berlin/Hamburg/Munich, but it'd be interesting to compare.

[hef19898]

My five cents because the basic design philosophies are quite different. And also industry inherent arrogance, especially within the so called premium manufacturers.

Bit the the opposite is true as well isn't it? You cannot treat automotive manufacturing like software development. I'd say the first company to successfully blend the two has a huge advantage.

[esyir]

Technically, even though it does to the fev sides of things, isn't this tesla?

[hef19898]

Not so sure about Tesla having figures out automotive mass production. Cannot comment on the software side of things, but I donhave the impression that Tesla is ahead of more traditional car makers there.

[ozim]

It is not 10 years ago but something around that time I was working on automated tests for car equipment. Quite a lot of it was still semi-manual because you had to change some things with physical buttons that you would have in car, but voltage changes, and quite a lot of sensor inputs we had automated. Was quite easy because you could fake CAN connected devices.

[thrax]

I worked for Mercedes Benz. They do a LOT of their software development in the US/silicon valley, and I was very impressed by their process and work environments.

[paganel]

I own a basically German-engineered car (the car badge itself is Spanish), and one of its main advantages is that it is old enough (well, by today's standards, the car is from 2007) that is not sophisticated enough in order to include that much electronics and software. As such I'm perfectly confident to hop right in and drive 400-500 miles, heck, I've driven almost 3000 miles a couple of summers ago all the way to Switzerland and back.

I would totally not have the same level of confidence driving a more modern German car with more electronics and software included. As such, how much of today's value of a car is comprised of its software is orthogonal to how good or bad that software actually is.

[trevyn]

You wouldn't feel confident driving 400 miles in a 2019 German car because of software? What do you envision going wrong?

[paganel]

> you wouldn't feel confident driving 400 miles in a 2019 German car because of software?

Because of software and electronics combined, yes.

> What do you envision going wrong?

One of my closest friends purchased a VW Tiguan last year and not two weeks into his ownership the car left him stranded at the side of the read because of a coolant hose or something similar. If VW cannot make a simple hose not break after only two weeks in a 30,000 euros car I cannot trust their software verification processes and I'm not willing to spend that much money in order to find out. In other words, if they cannot properly verify a simple hose I cannot trust them with properly verifying software.

[ulfw]

"One of my closest friends purchased a Macbook last year and not two weeks into his ownership the notebook left him stranded at the side of the read because of a power cable breaking or something similar. If Apple cannot make a simple power cable not break after only two weeks in a 3,000 euros notebook I cannot trust their software verification processes and I'm not willing to spend that much money in order to find out. In other words, if they cannot properly verify a simple power cable I cannot trust them with properly verifying software."

I really tried following your logic but it still escapes me what a hose has to do with software.

[paganel]

You do know that there's a strong correlation between Apple's downward standards in how they physically manufacture their latest laptops and the quality (or lack of) of their latest OSes, don't you? I don't want to start an endless Apple-related flamewar but the links and discussions about this subject on this very website are countless.

Like I said, if you're not bothered anymore of doing basic quality testing for things like coolant hoses then how can I trust the same company with doing basic quality testing for their software?

> if they cannot properly verify a simple power cable I cannot trust them with properly verifying software.

Yes, one of the reasons why I told my boss that I don't want a 2,500 euros Apple laptop (I chose a Mini instead, they're more sturdy, less expensive and I gathered more difficult to fuck up) were articles like this one [1]. And yes, it does involve a cable fuck-up.

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/19/18271733/flexgate-display...

[olivermarks]

On new cars if a component is faulty they fail quickly. I had a tire blow out on a brand new car I was driving home from the dealers in the UK once. Tires and hoses are easy, it's the opaque systems that are a nightmare to troubleshoot, given lack of documentation and manufacturer rules forbidding removing plastic engine covers etc

[robocat]

Always a good read on the subject:

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expe...

[olivermarks]

The challenge is troubleshooting at the roadside. Older vehicles have comprehensible shop manuals and systems, but most cars in the last 10 years have little guidance on owner repair, which is often formally discouraged. A 2019 car is unlikely to have systems wear and tear or short circuit issues but they are so complex if something does fail you are unlikely to be able to do anything about it

[wirrbel]

Probably more of an industry thing. I remember seeing a Twitter thread where someone was reporting about the state of software at Tesla. What was described was not much different from what I hear about other car manufacturers

[jdc]

This seems high. Is it that 2019 model is worth 30% more than a 2000 model was at release? Or is it more a matter of refactoring mechanical linkages/interfaces into software?

[0xffff2]

Surely a car only has 1 ECU (Engine control unit). It may well have 100+ micro controllers on board.

[thesimp]

That was maybe 15 years ago. These days cars have multiple CANbus networks running and there are control unit everywhere.

Below the details for an Alfa Romeo Giulia, which is interesting because it was a complete new design when introduced in 2016, not a rework of a previous platform:

3 networks run in parallel: These networks and their subnetworks are protected by a Security Gateway Module (SGW).

  - CAN-C (high-speed 500 kb/s)
  - CAN-CH (high-speed 500 kb/s)
  - CAN-IHS (medium-speed 125 kb/s)

Modules connect to 1st network:

  - Body Control Module (BCM)
  - Instrument Panel Cluster (IPC)
  - Occupant Restraint Control (ORC)
  - Radio Frequency Hub (RFH) Module
  - Antilock Brake System Module (ABS)
  - Adaptive Cruise Control Module (ACC)
  - Emergency Assistance Module (EAM)
  - Primary Powertrain Control Module 2.9 V6 (PCM - P)
  - Powertrain Control Module 2.0 I4 DI (PCM)

To 2nd network:

  - ABS Module
  - BCM
  - Electric Steering Lock (ESL)
  - Park Assist Module (PAM)
  - Electric Power Steering (EPS)
  - FFCM - Haptic Lane Feedback (FFCM - HALF)
  - Occupant Restraint Control (ORC)
  - Active Aerodynamic Module Left – Front left Splitter actuator (AAML)
  - Active Aerodynamic Module Right – Front right Splitter actuator (AAMR)
  - Adaptive Front Light System (AFLS)
  - Chassis Domain Control Module (CDCM)
  - Torque Vectoring Module (TVM)

To 3rd network:

  - Instrument Panel Cluster (IPC)
  - Comfort Seat Wheel Module (CSWM)
  - Left Blind Spot Sensor (LBSS)
  - Right Blind Spot Sensor (RBSS)
  - Amplifier (AMP)
  - Trailer Tow Module (TTM)
  - Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning (HVAC)
  - Entertainment Telematic Module VP2, VP4 (ETM)
  - BCM
  - Entertainment Multimedia Control Module (EMCM)
  - Secondary Powertrain Control Module 2.9 V6 (PCM - S)

[Mankaninen]

ECU is abbreviation for Electronic Control Unit in automotive. (And a modern car may actually have multiple ECUs controlling the engine(s), especially if it is a hybrid=HEV, plugin HEV=PHEV or battery electric vehicle=BEV.)

[fibers]

This explains why one of the major tier 1 suppliers has an absolutely horrendous workflow in processing financial data. We do a lot of business with them and when processing invoices sent to them, almost every division outside of Germany accepts invoices by email, but for one of the central German plants, they only accept invoices by mail to a foreign PO Box, so we're effectively giving a discount due to international shipping per each shipment/invoice can get high. As far as I can tell this seems more like an IT issue rather than a financial one (very large firms are geniuses in pushing out which vendors to pay, but if this was a universal case then every international plant would only accept invoices by mail)

[odiroot]

> The state of the German IT industry outside of a few select places (Berlin, mostly)

If Berlin IT industry is a golden standard I'm really not very hopeful for Germany.

[k__]

I started freelancing in 2014 and somehow ended up only working for US companies after 4 years.

Even german startups feel to be a few years behind.

[adventured]

If you don't mind me asking, was it primarily a pay rate issue, or the number of freelancing opportunities that were available?

[k__]

German IT companies just felt too conservative to me.

I work only remote.

[ulfw]

It is. And yes, there is no reason to be hopeful.

[trabant00]

> VW, BMW and Mercedes) apparently still think that building the best engines/transmissions and being the best at putting them all together

That stopped being true at least 10 years ago. In 2019 I would bet on a Renault engine every time (so does Mercedes btw :P)