[paganel]

I own a basically German-engineered car (the car badge itself is Spanish), and one of its main advantages is that it is old enough (well, by today's standards, the car is from 2007) that is not sophisticated enough in order to include that much electronics and software. As such I'm perfectly confident to hop right in and drive 400-500 miles, heck, I've driven almost 3000 miles a couple of summers ago all the way to Switzerland and back.

I would totally not have the same level of confidence driving a more modern German car with more electronics and software included. As such, how much of today's value of a car is comprised of its software is orthogonal to how good or bad that software actually is.

[trevyn]

You wouldn't feel confident driving 400 miles in a 2019 German car because of software? What do you envision going wrong?

[paganel]

> you wouldn't feel confident driving 400 miles in a 2019 German car because of software?

Because of software and electronics combined, yes.

> What do you envision going wrong?

One of my closest friends purchased a VW Tiguan last year and not two weeks into his ownership the car left him stranded at the side of the read because of a coolant hose or something similar. If VW cannot make a simple hose not break after only two weeks in a 30,000 euros car I cannot trust their software verification processes and I'm not willing to spend that much money in order to find out. In other words, if they cannot properly verify a simple hose I cannot trust them with properly verifying software.

[ulfw]

"One of my closest friends purchased a Macbook last year and not two weeks into his ownership the notebook left him stranded at the side of the read because of a power cable breaking or something similar. If Apple cannot make a simple power cable not break after only two weeks in a 3,000 euros notebook I cannot trust their software verification processes and I'm not willing to spend that much money in order to find out. In other words, if they cannot properly verify a simple power cable I cannot trust them with properly verifying software."

I really tried following your logic but it still escapes me what a hose has to do with software.

[paganel]

You do know that there's a strong correlation between Apple's downward standards in how they physically manufacture their latest laptops and the quality (or lack of) of their latest OSes, don't you? I don't want to start an endless Apple-related flamewar but the links and discussions about this subject on this very website are countless.

Like I said, if you're not bothered anymore of doing basic quality testing for things like coolant hoses then how can I trust the same company with doing basic quality testing for their software?

> if they cannot properly verify a simple power cable I cannot trust them with properly verifying software.

Yes, one of the reasons why I told my boss that I don't want a 2,500 euros Apple laptop (I chose a Mini instead, they're more sturdy, less expensive and I gathered more difficult to fuck up) were articles like this one [1]. And yes, it does involve a cable fuck-up.

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/19/18271733/flexgate-display...

[olivermarks]

On new cars if a component is faulty they fail quickly. I had a tire blow out on a brand new car I was driving home from the dealers in the UK once. Tires and hoses are easy, it's the opaque systems that are a nightmare to troubleshoot, given lack of documentation and manufacturer rules forbidding removing plastic engine covers etc

[robocat]

Always a good read on the subject:

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expe...

[olivermarks]

The challenge is troubleshooting at the roadside. Older vehicles have comprehensible shop manuals and systems, but most cars in the last 10 years have little guidance on owner repair, which is often formally discouraged. A 2019 car is unlikely to have systems wear and tear or short circuit issues but they are so complex if something does fail you are unlikely to be able to do anything about it

[wirrbel]

Probably more of an industry thing. I remember seeing a Twitter thread where someone was reporting about the state of software at Tesla. What was described was not much different from what I hear about other car manufacturers