[gregfjohnson]

Tangentially related: I just turned 65, and am continuing to immensely enjoy programming. Current job involves embedded digital signal processing in medical devices.

My family came up with a new name for my category of programmers: the gerihacktric demographic.. :-)

I have interviewed with Alphabet twice, no offers. One time apparently it was a close call..

It would be fun to be the all-time record holder for oldest new hire!

[moflome]

Love it. Have found that the closer you get to hardware groups at any of the FAANG's, the higher the average age. Met several happily employed grandparents in the groups, adding value and telling the best stories.

[rifung]

> Have found that the closer you get to hardware groups at any of the FAANG's, the higher the average age.

Hm that makes sense given the relative infancy of the software industry.

Not to mention that enrollment in CS programs has been increasing so the talent pool is skewed towards younger people

[segmondy]

Almost every rejected hire is apparently a "close call" ;-)

[pradn]

That could be true, statistically, if the initial screening interviews are high-signal.

[Quekid5]

Is there any published research-level evidence that FAANG interviews are high-signal?

I'm no expert, but the only published research I've read on this is "Thinking, Fast and Slow", and the original researcher has recently cast doubt on his own results on that study. Regardless, the evidence there was that all that mattered was "any objectively measurable metric" -- which would mean that FAANGs are wasting a lot of time and money on useless interviews. (Of course they have money to throw away, but still...)

[ninth_ant]

I worked at one of those companies. They were very self-certain that their hiring was high signal. They were likewise completely disinterested in doing a control group test where we randomly hire people from the fail pool and see how they compare once hired.

[repolfx]

You mean, beyond the companies being successful and effective, and famous for the skill of their workforce? Beyond 9 of the top 10 most valuable companies in America being tech firms that all interview in similar ways?

What kind of evidence that tech interviews work well are you looking for, exactly? Isn't the obvious evidence of your own eyes sufficient?

[ergothus]

Not the above poster, but if they only hire 10% of their interviewees, that's a sign that not every interview is a "close call', which is the context of an interview being high signal here.

[vsnf]

>the original researcher has recently cast doubt on his own results on that study

Do you have a reference for this? I'm interested in reading more.

[jborichevskiy]

This HN post/discussion from 2017 [0] may be of some help.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15228712

[lonelappde]

The phone screens are terrible signal. They intentionally give everyone who can spell Java or C an on-site to get multiple opinions. No one wants to be the single person who commits to a No Hire.

[typon]

I'm much younger than you, but I also interviewed with Google last year, got rejected after on-site, apparently a "close call" too. Did you grind leetcode enough? ;)

[PopeDotNinja]

Developer and former recruiter here. You cannot trust the reason you have been rejected to be honest. You can only believe that they were clear about rejecting you.

For example, "it was a close call" could mean:

- you were late to the interview, and we didn't like that

- we closed the job and stopped recruiting everyone

- you had mustard on your shirt, and we didn't like that

- an interviewer was late to an interview, insisted you proceeds anyway, and you could not possibly have received a vote of confidence for the questions asked in the time allotted

And so on and so on. The only things you can really trust are got hired, didn't get hired, and never heard back. That's it.

[riku_iki]

What signal gave you "close call" impression?..

[typon]

The recruiter told me I had 3 really positive reviews and 2 somewhat positive and 1 negative review. It's usually more feedback than I expect from companies but it was good to hear. It also matched with my expectations knowing how the interview went. She apparently took it to another hiring committee and they said no as well.

[sandino]

The recruiter told me I had 3 really positive reviews and 2 somewhat positive and 1 negative review.

And apparently at Google - the negatives carry the day.

[itp]

That's true at a lot of organizations. The cost of a false positive hire typically vastly outweighs the cost of a false negative, particularly when you have the luxury of being perceived as a premiere employer in the space (from which follows a steady stream of qualified applicants).

[sandino]

I know the rationale. Then again if it's just one 1 person out of 6 (including 3 other persons who gave "very positive" reviews) then maybe that one person is just being ... negative. As the modern interviewing culture (not so subtly) incentivizes them to be.

[cortesoft]

Well, if the other candidates had 6 positive reviews, it makes sense.

[lonelappde]

Why? How many openings were there, and how many other applicants?

[mcguire]

In my case, it was the recruiter in Dublin, where I interviewed, writing "it looks like we are coming to a successful conclusion" about a week before I got the generic dismissal email.

[gregfjohnson]

(A quick note/disclaimer: I am extremely happy in my current situation, and work for a great manager; no interest in moving, despite my flippant comment.)

The signal was what I was told when I got a subsequent unsolicited contact from a Google recruiter. She communicated this information to me verbally. (I believed her, and in retrospect still do. She was great during the whole process; never gave me the slightest indication that she was in any way deceptive or dishonest.)

[justaj]

I'm 35. I've yet to learn a programming language. I've always been intimidated by starting and choosing a language.

I've started to loosen up regarding that and finally finding a path I could take. However, instead now I'm intimidated by the job market and age discrimination.

[tracker1]

Depends on the market... Pacific coast is definitely skewed young. Phoenix, Houston, Austin and Atlanta will be a little older. Phoenix in particular leans a bit older, I'm 44 and average in the group I'm currently working with is within 5 years of my age.

A lot of the work is more boring business oriented work, and not a lot of startups. But it's steady, there's plenty of it and it pays relatively well compared to cost of living.

Start with Dive Into Python... then decide on something you want to make for yourself and work from there. Python is one of the better options to start from. JS is my personal favorite, second is now Rust, but they're harder to jump into as a beginner.

[t34543]

Phoenix salaries are abysmal. I looked for work about 5 years ago and senior positions had an advertised range of up to 60k. I left the area, maybe it’s different now.

[tracker1]

From my experience, most Sr Developers are 100-120k, unless it's PHP. For niche skills it can be closer to 140k. Even 5 years ago. Not sure where you were looking or your specific skillset.

[tracker1]

According to glassdoor, the average for "Senior Software Developer" is 93k in Phoenix. So, I'm a little off. Of course, I've also seen "senior" roles requiring all of "2 years experience" with the core technology (that's 18 years old). So YMMV. Also worth noting that the cost of living here largely offsets this.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/phoenix-senior-software-d...

[t34543]

I must live in a bubble. I’m staff and cash comp is ~210k, no stock as it’s privately owned company.

[strikelaserclaw]

the above poster posted non sf salaries. I'm in the dallas area and 110-150 is pretty much the norm for senior developers, it is much harder to get any higher down here.

[pmiller2]

Any stats showing that those places skew older, or is that just your perception?

[tracker1]

Just my own experience... Of course, I did read something a while ago that stated since software development began, roughly half of all software developers had less than 5 years of experience. The reflects growth and attrition in addition to youth. So definitely young people out there.

From my experience, at least half of the devs I've worked with have been within 5 years of my age (currently 44) and where I am now, and my last two positions that's been the case as well.

[mleonhard]

Start with Python and a highly-rated book on Amazon. You will learn the same concepts with any language. You will have more fun an learn faster with an easy language like Python.

[blub]

One option might be to transition as fast as possible into scrum master/product owner and then project manager.

[koverda]

You can always find an excuse.

[bobloblaw45]

I feel if they're learning strictly to find work and it's not something they do for fun then it's a legitimate concern due to time it takes to learn to get to an employable level. As you get older you need to be more smart with how you spend your time.

[52-6F-62]

Excellent! Any resource suggestions for a digital signal processing novice? More interested on the musical end, but also in general.

[gregfjohnson]

Here is an excellent resource:

https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/

The first online book linked from the author's homepage is:

MATHEMATICS OF THE DISCRETE FOURIER TRANSFORM (DFT) WITH AUDIO APPLICATIONS SECOND EDITION

IMHO the author does a brilliant job of presenting the mathematics with rigor, but with accessible "on-ramps" via examples.

[howard941]

Wow. In all seriousness I regret I have only one up arrow to give for this guy's online stuff.

[52-6F-62]

Thank you! This is exactly the kind of applied maths I need to get myself to commit to learning what I (at least think) I want to learn.

Appreciate it!

[AareyBaba]

Coursera Audio Signal Processing for Music Applications - Xavier Serra & Prof Julius O Smith, III @ Stanford

[52-6F-62]

Appreciate it!

[xiphias2]

It's great, that you got to interview stage. What I mostly found that most discrimination happens before someone gets to the interview phase, which makes sense, as it makes interviewing cheaper.

Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones, which makes it harder for older people who do to get the chance to prove themselves.

[rikroots]

Not my experience. I've learned how to tweak my resume to a job spec while at the same time not giving an impression of my age (getting a degree with the Open University in my 40s really helps with that). It's at the face to face interview stage that the wheels tend to fall off my cart - nothing I could prove as 'ageist' behaviour, more like they're disappointed in me (or discounting me) before we sit down to chat?

"Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones..." - this is demonstrably ageist. People performing a mid-life career change can be as focussed and driven to succeed in IT as anyone; the determination to acquire and master new skills is, in my view, a personality thing, not an age-related thing.

[sjg007]

I've seen plenty of mid-life career changers.. some to doctors even and they all have been successful. I agree ageist and short sighted.

[taurath]

To some extent it could also be that you’re presenting as young?

FWIW - My only concern with older folks is that they’re either jaded, stuck in their ways technologically, or obstinate towards being managed by people younger than them. Strong opinions held strongly is a net negative. This isn’t everyone or even a majority, but it’s quite a few.

[rikroots]

> they’re either jaded, stuck in their ways technologically, or obstinate towards being managed by people younger than them

Again, (mostly) stereotyping:

"jaded" - I'd argue this hits a lot of front end developers after about 5 years. How many new frameworks have there been in the last 5 years? There comes a point when any sane person will look at the newest "killer" framework and decide to wait a couple of years before investing time in learning it, just in case next year's "killer" framework turns out to be more fun to learn.

"stuck in their ways" - this is more a personality thing, I think. Most people will find their comfort zone pretty quickly, and then get grumpy when asked/required to venture outside of it. Risk aversion and/or laziness doesn't, in my view, increase significantly with age.

"obstinate towards being managed" - this one is a problem that everyone has to face as they grow older. The sad fact (from what I've seen in my age group) is that some people just cannot come to terms with the ageing process, that there's going to be younger people who are better placed to do a team-leader/manager job than they are (because: longer experience in the industry). But that is something that can be worked on - the important thing is to demonstrate a willingness to at least give it a go, offer support to the younger manager (be a wise owl, not an old owl), and be an excellent team player. At least that's my attitude.

[sandino]

This isn’t everyone or even a majority, but it’s quite a few.

In other words: not only is there no hard data behind this view; there isn't any (from a gut perspective) that much of a correlation -- but it's a strong opinion, strongly held nonetheless.

[taurath]

Its just an anecdote, not data, and it isn't an opinion I hold strongly! This is based on like 15 people.

[grimjack00]

> Strong opinions held strongly is a net negative.

Strong opinions like your opinion on older folks?

[taurath]

I certainly could've and should've added a lot more context, or refrained from sending off a quick post without giving it more thought. I was trying to list the ways in which I've seen some programmers who happen to be older be a negative - not that anyone should make the assumption of any single older person, or that there's not equal or greater problems with younger people. Just different.

[jackhack]

>>Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones

Most old people don't need to learn as many new things. It's called "experience."

[filoleg]

You can call it “experience”, but that won’t help you find many TurboPascal jobs in 2019. At some point, experience is something that allows you to learn new things quicker and more efficiently, not something to be used as an excuse for not learning new things.

[sjg007]

>Most old people don't learn as many new things as younger ones

... are you sure about that? I'd avoid sweeping generalizations, it does not help your argument.

[derekp7]

I've found that with myself, as I get older I get more selective with what new stuff I learned. I've seen so many fads come and go, and don't really have a whole lot of time ahead of me, so I need to make sure that what I learn really counts.

[xiphias2]

As I'm getting older all my organs are working less, and my brain is slower as well (though I'm able to think just as deeply as before).

At the same time I'm much more concious about spending my thinking energy, and because of my experience I'm making much more money than when I was younger _despite_ my slower thinking.

Discrimination involves hate, and I definately not hate old people, just accept the facts of life (and I'm also hoping for a cure for aging).

[MaxBarraclough]

> Discrimination involves hate

Not always, no. That would give an unworkably narrow definition.

[lawnchair_larry]

In a discussion about age discrimination, yes, sweeping generalizations do support the argument. He’s not wrong.

[mcguire]

By demonstrating age discrimination?

[binthere]

You are the proof that there is age discrimination in interviews. If you are in tech there's a high chance you've been on the interviewer side and you already gave your opinion based on this bias.

[obtino]

Repeat these words to yourself when you're in the same situation one day. This is a prime example of ageism!

[xiphias2]

I was in that situation, and had problems getting into company interviews....until I started using my connections

[danielscrubs]

I'd say they already know the paradigms & architectures so they don't throw themselves at the latest fad as easily and above all seem to value family more highly and lets be honest. Back in the day you had to learn some pretty amazing tech (assembler and low memory data structures) just to get by.

But yeah, just today there was a comment here on Hacker News saying (I'm paraphrasing): I learnt C then C++ then Java, then enough was enough. Which is just sad, that's like going from oatmeal to porrige.

[rubicon33]

The flip side of that coin is the drain that comes from...

Learning C, then C++, then Rust, then Java, then Ruby (rails), then Objective-C, then Swift, then JavaScript, then Angular, then React, then Flutter, then ....

Depending on the timeframe in which all that learning happens, there's simply no way you can reach expert level with such a diversified knowledge base.

[inlined]

> there’s simply no way you can reach expert level with such a diversified codebases.

What are you talking about? I’ve checked in production code in 4 languages in a day.

Once you learn your first few languages you should be able to learn the new syntax of a language in a day or two and a good portion of their idioms in the next month (as you know more languages you’ll notice what’s unique about each language and glean idioms from online tutorials and your local codebases).

Being a polyglot is a huge part of many in our industry, especially full stack development. For one project alone I had to work with a backend that was part Java and part Go that hosted customers’ Node backend. I oversaw client SDKs in Objective-C, Java, and C++ and helped prototype the server-side SDK for Go. That’s not fatigue, it’s enjoyable and a skill I can offer my team. Sure I get rusty with a language, but it doesn’t take long to blow off the dust with a skill.

[gregfjohnson]

From what I've seen, some people are passionate voracious learners. This does not correlate with age. However, it may be harder to find these (very valuable) people among a younger population than an older one. If someone has slowed down in the area of constant learning, their existing knowledge may be more recent if they are younger. The "constant learner" signal stands out more prominently for older developers.