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by gomox 2546 days ago
Oh come on. Any decent project manager understands the difference between an estimate and a deadline and plans and communicates accordingly. It's not rocket science. Stuff gets shipped on time all the time.
4 comments

Any decent project manager who wants to keep their job will acquiesce to people further up in the org chart who want deadlines, not estimates, and who consider the difference between the two to be as fuzzy as it needs to be.
> Any decent project manager who wants to keep their job will acquiesce to people further up in the org chart

In my book, that project manager is not "decent". A decent project manager would recognize the situation for what it is and leave.

Then there won’t be any good project managers, as I’m fairly certain most executives do this shit.
That's the problem I've been seeing in non tech based companies. IOW when tech isn't what they're selling.
A deadline is a requirement. It is not a PM’s job to reject requirements, though it is their job to help th customer understand and manage resolution of situations where the combination of requirements given are in conflict, such as when a deadline is insufficient to acheive the functional requirements.
And any decent engineering team will accept that a project has deadlines and raise progressively more serious risks with appropriate explanations up the chain as the confidence that completion will occur before the deadline declines below near-certainty.

Deadlines can be legitimate project requirements as much as functional requirements are. Identifying practical conflicts between requirements is part of what an engineering team does. Managing resolution of those once they are identified so that the customer gets the best result achievable is what a PM does.

>who want deadlines, not estimates, and who consider the difference between the two to be as fuzzy as it needs to be.

This is exactly it. Well said!

There's two issues right?

1. Inability to estimate effort. Admittedly an academic issue, and should be taught to all engineers in college.

2. Inability of management to deal with delays due to bad estimation. This might be caused by a "bozo explosion", say, (where inept managers hire more inept people underneath them.)

Edited to add:

3. Why do we keep making assumptions that management must be infallible? In any dysfunctional organization, it might just take one bad manager high up in the chain that causes pain for the entire organization beneath him.

I cannot believe how much I love the term "bozo explosion". I see this situation all the time as a consultant, and now I have a fantastic term for it. Thanks for sharing!
I'm a consultant as well. You go through enough companies and you can see how much of a problem this actually is.

As much as I did not particularly care for the management style of Steve Jobs, as far as I know, he was the one that first used the term.

https://guykawasaki.com/what-i-learned-from-steve-jobs/

Edited to add:

This just happened recently. Maybe you'll appreciate it.

15 years ago or so (before the term "technical debt" got widespread usage) management kept asking why we working on so many bugs. The solution was to label them as "enhancements".

Just recently within the past year, I saw the exact same thing happen again.

> If you ask customers what they want, they will tell you, “Better, faster, and cheaper”

Amazon took that to heart. Seems to have worked out for them.

They did? In what way? When I look at the online ecosystem for buying things in the EU, Amazon is consistently the one that can't promise I will get what I order, can't promise when it will come and can't make it easy to give them money. The only thing they do right is that they're theoretically cheaper, but then because you might get a product that doesn't work (and it's very hard to solve that issue to a standard that you'd expect as someone in the EU) the cost saving benefit goes right out the window.
They were the first that made online retail work. Plus there's the whole AWS thing.
I want to work where you do, where friction is negligible, cows are perfectly spherical, wind resistance is never a factor, all functions are continuous and differentiable across their entire domain, and all project managers are decent.
I'm not saying the story is implausible, but I dispute the idea that estimating software development efforts is an intractable problem that is better left unattempted.
Estimating things is important and valuable, but as soon as you get large corporate structures and multiple levels of people communicating involved it becomes a really bad idea. That's why it shouldn't be attempted in those kinds of situations.
Please don't assume decent project managers. That's how you get in trouble.