[pmlnr]

> Imagine if cash became digital.

Been there, in China, with Alipay. Absolutely no way for an EU person to pay with it: doesn't accept European phone number for sign up and since the end of 2018 one can not get a proper Chinese SIM with a passport.

Don't touch cash. That's the only fallback we have for outages, when someone is without data connection (ghasp!) or for scenarios where politics or decisions make it impossible for foreigners to use it, like above.

EDIT one additional thought. One of my technical issues with Alipay is that it requires data connection from both sides. With POS terminals it's only the seller who needs to have some kind of a phone line. In a foreign country, with the current state of roaming charges, this is a serious problem. I don't know if FB plans to address this issue.

EDIT2 responding to some comments - even if a foreigner could/can get a full Chinese SIM, for spending 2 weeks there the need for a second, dedicated SIM is an overkill and an additional, tricky round, especially if you're not going to a Tier 1 city. Even if you succeed adding foreign bank accounts and debit cards could get tricky if I understand correctly, but I never actually got to test it.

[sametmax]

Also cash is the only thing that works if your system gets unfair in some way. It's the only thing that allows a hobo to stay in touch with society, paying in a gay bar without trace, setup a political group that the state would deem immoral, experiment with banned drugs, buy censored books and journals, etc

If you like democracy, you need a small, but resiliant grey zone. You need to allow a few people to take the risk of doing what's condamned. It's not sexy, but it's necessary.

Do not outlaw cash.

[ur-whale]

>Do not outlaw cash

As much as I agree with you, cash is unfortunately already well on its way out: in many EU countries (Italy, France), cash transactions above 1.5k euros are illegal. For example, buying a car cash is illegal. The US won't be far behind, imho.

For small transactions (eg buying a loaf of bread), something flipped in small business owners minds: they used to hate plastic for small stuff, and I can increasingly feel that today, it's the exact opposite: people let out a small sigh of annoyance when they see you pull out your coins.

This is a freedom almost as important as free speech that's slowly and silently being choked to death by big govt and not a single so-called freedom fighter out there, be they on the left or on the right of the political spectrum is picking up on the significance of the issue.

[aiCeivi9]

> something flipped in small business owners minds

EU intercharge cap (The Regulation on Interchange Fees for Card-based payment transactions) entered into force in June 2015 [0] - it was probably that.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interchange_fee#European_Union

[johnnycab]

>they used to hate plastic for small stuff, and I can increasingly feel that today, it's the exact opposite: people let out a small sigh of annoyance when they see you pull out your coins

If we are to preserve and force the continual issuance of physical currency, this is one of those of annoyances, which needs to be tolerated. In a decade's time, cash as a concept will be even more eroded and probably well on it's way to being gradually phased out of acceptance/existence. In another decade or more, it will become quaint and start to evoke feelings of nostalgia, perhaps even undergoing a retro revival by getting used as an underground currency.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48133093

[mtw]

In Germany, cash is still king

[robin_reala]

I’m not disagreeing, but have you got a reference for your first paragraph?

[Flashtoo]

https://www.europe-consommateurs.eu/en/consumer-topics/finan...

[bufferoverflow]

No, it's not the only way anymore. Now we have decentralized crypto currencies, and some of them are even designed for privacy, like Monero or ZCash.

[darkcha0s]

That doesn't solve any of the aforementioned problems.

[bufferoverflow]

It solves all the problems that the comment I replied to listed.

[sametmax]

No. A hobo will not use a crypto coin. A crypto coin will not work during a natural disaster. It will not let you live out of the grid.

A crypto currency is a great complement to cash, not a replacement.

[bufferoverflow]

> A hobo will not use a crypto coin.

Reality would like a word with you.

https://qolczpnfu7-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/upload...

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/20/1b/11/201b111e61b9f8266cca274d6...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2018/08/08/TELE...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a4/4b/9c/a44b9c2d5f4a671f5d23...

https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article11700457.ece/AL...

[rahimnathwani]

"since the end of 2018 one can not get a proper Chinese SIM with a passport"

I took my passport to a China Unicom shop in Beijing a few weeks ago, to get a SIM for a visiting relative. The process took about 10 minutes.

"Alipay is that it requires data connection from both sides"

No it doesn't. If I print out my payment QR code, you can scan it and pay me even if my phone is off. When I buy vegetables at the market, the vendors have their Alipay and WeChat QR codes displayed on stickers.

Some vendors have cheap bluetooth devices which announce the amount of each incoming payment, but most vendors trust the customer and don't bother to check whether a payment was made.

[pmlnr]

> I took my passport to a China Unicom shop in Beijing a few weeks ago, to get a SIM for a visiting relative. The process took about 10 minutes.

Tried to do the same in a tourist city (not a tier 1 city), beginning of May, didn't work. I wanted a full SIM, not a data only SIM though, which one did you get?

> No it doesn't. If I print out my payment QR code, you can scan it and pay me even if my phone is off. When I buy vegetables at the market, the vendors have their Alipay and WeChat QR codes displayed on stickers.

So the vendor (receiver) doesn't need connectivity, but you (sender) do, correct? That's the polar opposite of POS.

[tomjohnneill]

For what it's worth (and this was in 2018), I tried to buy a SIM in Changsha, and was told that I had to go to a specific China Unicom shop - apparently only one of them was allowed to register foreigners' details.

[rahimnathwani]

"Tried to do the same in a tourist city (not a tier 1 city), beginning of May, didn't work."

I'm curious - did you go to an official China Unicom store (i.e. owned and operated by China Unicom) or an independent retailer that happens to sell SIM cards?

"I wanted a full SIM, not a data only SIM though, which one did you get?"

A regular SIM with a voice+data plan.

[olalonde]

> Tried to do the same in a tourist city (not a tier 1 city), beginning of May, didn't work. I wanted a full SIM, not a data only SIM though, which one did you get?

You just got unlucky... I bought one recently at China Mobile (Shenzhen). They do ask for passport and it takes about 10 minutes.

[pmlnr]

Both Beijing and Shenzen are Tier 1. And again, a full SIM or a data only SIM?

[olalonde]

Full SIM. I'm fairly sure you got unlucky with that particular shop. I've been living in China for about a decade and never heard such a thing (passport was not even required a while back).

[leppr]

> No it doesn't. If I print out my payment QR code, you can scan it and pay me even if my phone is off. When I buy vegetables at the market, the vendors have their Alipay and WeChat QR codes displayed on stickers.

That's fine for very small amounts like groceries in a market but this is very easy to cheat with a fake client app on the buyer's device.

[mike-cardwell]

I went to a music festival last weekend. All of the vendors had machines for taking card payments, and none of them worked because there was no phone signal.

Of course, I had a pocket full of cash, so didn't care, but a lot of people didn't.

[rahimnathwani]

Responding to your EDIT2:

I don't understand how you can both be concerned with the 'current state of roaming charges', yet think that getting a local SIM for a 2 week trip is 'overkill'.

I agree that it's probably harder to find the right place to buy a SIM in a non-tier-1 city, but you can probably Google it before you get there.

However, to get Alipay working you probably need a Chinese bank account. You can get one of those with your passport (even with a tourist visa) but I can understand if that seems like overkill for a 2 week trip :)

Nevertheless, if we contrast the situations in the US and China, they each have pros and cons for tourists:

USA pros: - cash gladly accepted almost everywhere - visa/MC accepted almost everywhere

USA cons: - can't get a local bank account as a tourist (at least not easily) - can't set up a local mobile wallet (PayPal or Venmo)

China pros: - tourist can get a bank account - tourist can get a mobile wallet (after getting a bank account)

China cons: - some places don't accept cash - many places don't accept visa/MC

So the US is a little more convenient for a tourist. You can get by fine without a local bank account or payment app.

[yorwba]

Being Facebook, they probably don't have to worry about the China market, but other countries also want to have some degree of control over money crossing their borders. It will be interesting to see how Calibra plans to handle that.

[lvturner]

> Been there, in China, with Alipay. Absolutely no way for an EU person to pay with it: doesn't accept European phone number for sign up and since the end of 2018 one can not get a proper Chinese SIM with a passport.

This is not true.

I got a "proper Chinese SIM" and new bank account two months ago in Shenzhen. Both Alipay and WeChat pay work fine. Whole process took under two hours, including getting the sim and I had bank card in my hand by the end of it.

[pmlnr]

I guess you were not on vacation in Hangzhou and in scenic areas. The last thing I'd want to do on holiday is opening a bank account.

[chvid]

Last that I was in China I used my standard Danish phone subscription from 3. Fast, flat rate data and full access to Google etc. in mainland China.

https://www.3.dk/abonnementer/fordele/3likehome/

[pmlnr]

This is orthogonal. Yes, my UK giffgaff worked, but UK - or Hungarian - phone numbers are not accepted by the Alipay app for registration.

[chvid]

Sure. I still couldn't do KYC in China and get an wechat wallet but global mobile roaming and internet connectivity is a first step ...

[helloindia]

Digital payment is now almost ubiquitous in India also. But, I still always carry cash with me, because of sketchy data network in crowded areas(including my workplace). All digital payment system in India requires data connection on payer phone.

[sprafa]

Alipay appears to be available in Europe now, as the UEFA Nations League tickets could be bought using either alipay or card. source: I bought Nations League tickets.

[rahimnathwani]

Did you pay using Alipay? If so, are you a Chinese citizen?

I'm asking because I have never been able to use Alipay at retailers or web sites outside China. When I tried to pay with Alipay at Uniqlo in Japan, the transaction failed and I received an SMS explaining it was because I don't have a Chinese national ID card.

[sprafa]

I did not use Alipay but the fact that it was available as an option and it was a sponsor heavily featured on materials even inside the stadiums made me think it must be available.

[pmlnr]

To sell, yes. Not to buy with it. I couldn't rent a bicycle in Hangzhou because if this.