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by saltyshake 2554 days ago
GPL v3 is toxic. It forces companies to hand out their private certificates. Huge no-no for any hardware manufacturer.
6 comments

I mean, only if control of that private certificate is required to run code on the device. I'm sad to live in a world where allowing people to run the software of their own choice on their own computers is considered a "huge no-no."
sigh..

Its not about "their own computer". Its about consumer "devices", including ones where control should not be given to the consumer for whatever reason. e.g. electric cars or medical devices.

Think of what would happen if anyone was allowed to run their own AutoPilot software on public roads.

Stallman is a radical and he doesn't pay attention to real business needs of large corporations, which is why they all avoid GPLv3 like the plague.

Requiring that a company provides access to the consumer doesn't preclude the existence of regulations ensuring safe usage.

If a user/team of developers were able to develop their own AI system which could operate to whatever safety constraints are set out by the law, on what grounds would you deny them from running their cars using the AI?

Similarly, we can all execute whatever code we want on our laptops, which also allows us the potential to cause harm by attacking other systems, but doing so would still be illegal.

> Think of what would happen if anyone was allowed to run their own AutoPilot software on public roads.

currently, they are? https://comma.ai/

This is more a matter for regulation than for copyright, I think. Even if the car's ECU and AI code were under GPLv3, governements could prohibit using non-certified versions of the software on public roads and levy hefty penalties and jail time when drivers are caught using wildcat software...

>Its not about "their own computer". Its about consumer "devices", including ones where control should not be given to the consumer for whatever reason. e.g. electric cars or medical devices.

Why should the owners of these devices not be allowed to control them? What makes them special?

>Think of what would happen if anyone was allowed to run their own AutoPilot software on public roads.

Sure, there are plenty of ways to modify the software in a car in reckless ways that endanger those around you. But it's possible to do a lot of things that endanger those around you: you can drink and drive, drive while tired, install headlights that blind other drivers, etc. We have laws to discourage that, and they probably need updating for our modern world of software-driven cars, but at a certain point we rely on the social norm of not recklessly endangering yourself and others. (And if nothing else, the owner of the car is liable if the modifications make it unsafe.)

This is not to say I think people should be able to do whatever they want on public roads; they're not yours after all, there are plenty of restrictions you have to abide by to use them, and I wouldn't mind having a software review requirement. But the car is yours: you bought it, you should be able to do whatever the heck you want with it otherwise.

> Think of what would happen if anyone was allowed to run their own AutoPilot software on public roads.

Nothing would change. You're responsible for what the car does.

> I'm sad to live in a world where allowing people to run the software of their own choice on their own computers is considered a "huge no-no."

I think it's a little more nuanced than that. Should I be able to run whatever software I want in my printer? Absolutely.

How about the software in my satellite internet radio transceiver (one rogue transceiver could take down the entire beam/jam the satellite)?

How about the software in the micro controllers in my car? Should I be allowed to modify that code too (if I mess up people could die)?

> How about the software in the micro controllers in my car? Should I be allowed to modify that code too (if I mess up people could die)?

You're allowed to modify any other part of the car. Why should software be different?

> How about the software in my satellite internet radio transceiver (one rogue transceiver could take down the entire beam/jam the satellite)?

There can be some flexibility for the part of the code actually doing the transceiving.

Everything on top should be replaceable.

And radio is really a special case, because it's a shared commons that requires a lot of expertise and where one bad transmitter can cause problems for miles or more.

>How about the software in my satellite internet radio transceiver (one rogue transceiver could take down the entire beam/jam the satellite)?

This sounds like a failure on the satellite part. Can you do satellite comms with SDR?

>How about the software in the micro controllers in my car? Should I be allowed to modify that code too (if I mess up people could die)?

What if people die because you cannot modify that code?

The problem is physics. You have a bunch of people in fairly close geographic area transmitting to the same point in space on the same frequency band. One bad actor can interfere with everybody else's tx.

> What if people die because you cannot modify that code?

I think it's far better to trust unmodified safety critical code that's been tested than to trust Joe Blow's precariously modified braking code that allows his Honda Civic to drift around corners better.

That's what laws are for.
No it doesn't. It forces companies to do that, or provide an update path that does not require their private certificates.
> GPL v3 is toxic.

DRM is toxic.

The two statements are not mutually exclusive.
Agreed, but no content company will license their shows if anyone can record it in full HD with an app on their TV.
> no content company will license their shows

That's their problem. Refusing to sell your product is probably not the best long-term business strategy. If they want revenue, the will eventually sell. The government already distorts the market in their favor by granting them an exclusive copyright. Those rights do not include being free from the market forces like supply & demand.

> anyone can record it in full HD with an app on their TV

Why would anybody do that, when its easier to just download a torrent? DRM doesn't stop piracy, because "stopping piracy" has always been the PR-excuse. DRM is an attempt to usurp property rights, with a manufacturer retaining control over your device after the first sale.

edit: grammar

Companies been very successful at catching and suing people torrenting. Plenty of ISPs/universities block torrent entirely.

If you do it from your TV, its much harder to catch.

You can use Xbox DVR on your PC to record Netflix....
"What about DRM?" is not a valid response to discussion of GPL v3 issues.
Is there an example of a hardware company that has been forced to hand out a private certificate because of the GPL v3?
Why am I getting downvoted for posting an article that's core related to GPVv3 and to the discussion ?

It seems anyone opposed to GPLv3 is being shushed by the pro-Stallman mobs.

Because it does not require the release of private certificates to comply with the anti-tivoization language.

If you said something about how the company would have less control over the hardware, so they are reluctant anyway, instead of offering that link as an incorrect answer to the question, then you would not receive downvotes.

Wouldn't it be better to just have a physical switch on the device to disable certificate checking?
I remember a world where when I bought something it was mine to do what I saw fit with.
Still is (all that 'licensed not sold' bs aside) but the manufacturer isn't obliged to support your activities (outside of right-to-repair type legislation). Just like they're not obliged to give you engineering drawings or internal specs or to explain principles of operation.