[jaabe]

I’ve never hired someone who was self-taught, not because self-taught people can’t be equal or better, but because you’re trying to buy security and stability. The most expensive mistake you can make as a manager is hiring the wrong person, and self-educated people just aren’t worth the risk when you have a dozen other candidates who are great. I’m Danish though and things are a little different here because education is free. In face the government will even pay you a small amount of monthly money while you study. So we don’t have that many self-educated people, and those who are, are typically self-educated for a range of reasons that put them at a disadvantage from the get go.

So my point isn’t to discourage you, but to make you aware that managers might see your lack of formal education as a risk that you need to mitigate.

Everyone can learn to program, but learning how to program, correctly, efficiently and safe comes with formal education and you probably need to show that you know at least something about how to make CS based decisions. Maybe you do, if so great. If you don’t, spend a little time researching best practices, read up on design patterns and maybe complete the MITX intro course(s) to CS on edx.org.

I’m not sure knowing a specific framework is really all that valuable. If your can build something with LAMP/JS that makes money then you’ve already demonstrated your ability to write software. On the other hand it wouldn’t hurt you either.

[randomvectors]

1. As a hiring manager you should be better at differentiating between people and treat a degree as just one data point that you take into account, and not as a filter that gives no false positives.

2. You're pointing out that self-educated people aren't worth the risk and then you go on to advise him that he should self-educate.

3. A point that I think you're kind of making and that I agree with, is that a degree is a signal that you've gone through a certain process of education. If you don't have it, then you'd better signal the same thing in a different manner and demonstrate that you're familiar with theory, best practices, design patterns and so on; and that you can stick with something for a continuous period of time (showing up and doing at least the minimum amount of work for 4 years isn't a signal that all candidates have).

[jaabe]

You can certainly have a degree in CS and suck, but the odds of that happening are much lower than with people who don’t have a CS degree. Why should I waste the resources if I have enough decent candidates?

The rockstar developer is kind of a myth. If you compile 100 applicants into the 5-8 best ones, then the truth is that you could probably hire any of them and get good results.

That doesn’t mean self-educated people should give up. Especially because very few countries have as easy access to education as we do.

[mattmanser]

Haha, the opposite of what you're arguing is true.

Anyone can get a CS degree without knowing how to program, you can make up the credits with all the irrelevant, purely academic, formal CS stuff.

But no-one can be a self-taught programmer, actually create a whole app, and lack the fundamental ability of being able to write a basic program.

[jaabe]

I think everyone can learn to write an app by following a few YouTube videos. This is how we’ve got our project managers and lean-operators to write RPA projects in python after all.

On the flip side, I’ve never personally met anyone who went through 5 years of university and came out knowing nothing.

The thing with CS is that it’s not the programming itself that’s actually valuable. It’s being able to create efficient, safe and maintainable code. If you can’t tell me the bigO of your program, if you don’t know how to remove the top node of a binary search tree or if you think using NPM packages to do simple computation is a good idea, then I just can’t use you, because it’ll be way too expensive to teach you.

If you suck at our specific tooling, but have already proven you can obtain a university degree, then I know that I can re-school you relatively cheap by sending you on a few courses.

I’m sorry this is rubbing non-educated programmers wrong, but an education is actually valuable, and it will be increasingly so as the younger generations are all getting them.

[randomvectors]

You're ignoring what I wrote above and you're arguing with a point that I'm not making.

[thetrost]

Yeah, nobody gets fired for buying IBM. I don't know how the market for good developers is in Denmark, but I think restricting your potential employees to just formally trained limits your potential as team/company.

edit: Plus, I know quite a lot of formally trained developers who at some point just stopped learning. To me that is much more dangerous than not having a formal education in the first place.

[jaabe]

I’ve hired a lot of people, I do a lot of networking and I work as an examiner for CS students, I’ve never seen someone who was self-educated remotely compare to someone with a degree. It just doesn’t happen in a country where anyone who wants to put in the work can get a degree.

Which was kind of my point. The people who failed to get a degree are typically the people who won’t become great when they are self-taught either.

I can see why you would chose not to get an education in a country like America, where it would be a huge financial burden to do so, but we literally pay people to attend their free education.

[mattmanser]

You've already said you never hire self-taught programmers so how would you know?

We have a lot of self-taught programmers in my generation in the UK (I think mainly because of the BBC micro programme for schools a few decades ago). I've seen awful CS educated programmers and I've seen awful self-taught ones.

The two best programmers I know, one was self-taught and one was not.

The worst programmer I've ever known was formally educated, could quote you reams of technical specs, advanced CS, and managed to write 20 lines of not working code in 3 months.

[jaabe]

Well I do interview self-taught people when their CVs are stellar, but I’ve yet to find one that was the better option.

I’m sure you can potentially get a CS degree and never learn anything but I don’t get the point that makes. I wouldn’t hire those people either. I don’t think it’s true though. I’ve never met anyone who went through 5 years of university without picking up anything useful.