[andrewstuart]

I'm not convinced that association with cryptocurrency does much to give the appearance of credibility, trustworthiness and stability to keybase.io

I associate crypto with shonk, which puts keybase.io in the "this is a crypto thing? Hmmm.... shonky." category.

I guess it depends on what the corporate goals of keybase.io are - I think it was identity management or something rather being a crypto player.

edit: I should qualify that I've always seen and continue to see keybase.io as being a really reputable and stable company and not shonky. I guess I was a bit jaded by being flooded with crypto ads on every social media platform 12 months ago or so.

[xur17]

> I associate crypto with shonk, which puts keybase.io in the "this is a crypto thing? Hmmm.... shonky." category.

I'm sorry to hear that. There is a lot of scammy behavior in the space, but there is also a lot of interesting work going on. It just turns out that the shitty people speak the loudest, so they're the ones you hear about, rather than all of the people heads down working hard on interesting problems.

I don't think it is intellectually honest to dismiss the entire space as a scam due to the bad actors.

[api]

The defense is to point out some genuinely useful work going on in the space that doesn't revolve around speculation.

[xur17]

* Bitcoin's lightning network

* Stable coins (Dai, USDC, etc)

* What Keybase just built (much easier way to manage keys for wallets)

* Makerdao's decentralized loan system

The first 2 enable you to transfer value over the internet in a cheap and non-revokable way (internet cash). The third one simplifies wallet management for the first two. The last one opens up a bunch of new opportunities for borrowing money without having to trust your counterparty. All of this enables people to transfer value without any middlemen.

And separate from this, projects like IPFS / Filecoin (if they actually work) would let you store data without using a centralized third party.

[drawnwren]

I agree that crypto could be valuable.

But, (1) the lightning network has been repeatedly attacked as unworkable trash and (2) there needs to be a reason to make crypto transactions other than drugs or vaguely crypto-anarchist philosophy.

(b) Tether's recent scandal has made all stable coins fairly suspect.

(d) The makerdao system has some pretty serious problems. High liquidation rates and skyrocketing fees both come up.

If anything, crypto has taught us (through the plethora of 2018/19 crypto scams) that revokability is a feature of transactions that is _valuable_.

I'd say my biggest takeaways from crypto, currently, are that there is not such thing as 'without having to trust the other party' and that all of the middlemen in the current financial system do provide more value than just taking a cut (while that value is probably not proportional to the cut that they take).

All that said, I'm still optimistic on crypto. However, I think it's unrealistic to expect it to replace a significant part of the web in its current form.

[vermilingua]

As to point (2), I think this keybase/stellar integration is the solution to the problem that crypto has been looking for.

If I want to give a friend money, I can hand them cash, but I have to be in the same room as them. I can transfer that cash in other ways, but I need to trust the middlemen. I can also use a bank to send them money, but I have to know their details, which are sensitive information. I can use one of the plethora of money-transfer apps, but that involves putting my money under someone else’s direct control (someone who may go insolvent by the end of the year).

Or, if I have them on keybase (or any number of platforms, ideally) I can now just send it with a simple text message.

Additionally, what if I really appreciate something you said on HN, or twitter; or you made a really valuable contribution to one of my projects on GH? If you have your keybase proof on there, I can send you my appreciation in a matter of seconds. Imagine trying to do that using cash, PayPal, etc.

Despite the fact that until now, crypto has had far more overhead than cash and credit transactions, this and successor programs may have the potential to make transfers far more convenient.

[shakna]

> I can also use a bank to send them money, but I have to know their details, which are sensitive information.

PayID [0] was standardised in Australia a while back, standardising what the banks were already doing. At least here, knowing someone's details is something from the past.

A PayID can _only_ receive.

A PayID is a number - not necessarily a phone number you own, but many people opted for that route, but keep the same number even if their phone number does change.

A PayID does reveal the name of the account holder.

Transfer happens as part of Instant Payments, so at it's longest it'll take 60 seconds to arrive in an account, but usually within 2.

PayID is also integrated into Apply Pay and Google's offering.

... Is this still an unsolved thing overseas? I've had instant transfers to friends without knowing their banking details for nearly a decade.

[0] https://payid.com.au/

[RustyRussell]

> (1) the lightning network has been repeatedly attacked as unworkable trash

[ Disclosure: I work on the lightning specification and one of the implementations ]

I'm sure it has been attacked (because "cryptos, bro"), I'm disappointed that it made you dismiss it.

FWIW, I switched from Linux Kernel development to developing Lightning after almost 20 years: I find it ambitious, high-potential and fascinating, as well as challenging.

[drawnwren]

I don't mean to attack you. It's just that there is a large gap between well-engineered and easy to use.

I am 100% certain you're a better developer than I, and that lightning is not a result of poor engineering. But if a layman can't pick it up and use it in under 5 minutes, it's unworkable (if you're targeting laymen).

Crypto is full of genius engineers, and product folks, but I think there is (and always has been) a usability crisis.

Thanks for your work on both Linux and Lightning. I look forward to the day you can point to this comment on HN as being ridiculously dated.

[uncletammy]

Sorry but calling Bitcoin's Lightning network "internet cash" is incredibly misleading. Bitcoin is "internet cash". At least it used to be.

Bitcoin's version of the lightning network is a Rube Goldberg machine bolted onto a payment network and dressed up to look like a scaling solution.

Lightning network is a super cool technology but BTC's implementation of it suffers from crippling flaws that make it useless for Lightning's most promising use cases. Lightning network was designed to be a micropayment solution built on top of a low-fee base layer. It requires that low-fee base layer to deliver on it's promises. Since it's been built on a high-fee base layer (BTC), transaction routing is now a problem that can only be solved by sending your lightning payment through a large and highly connected lightning node and never closing your payment channels (because re-opening them costs too much). This effectively eliminates the p2p aspect that is required for "lightning bitcoin" to function as cash.

Instead, BTC lightning network has to function more like traditional banks where the node operator is the bank and the payment channel is the user's account. The transactions are like really fast SWIFT/ACH transfers except they only go through if the sender's account meets the necessary liquidity constraints. Those liquidity constraints actually make btc lightning transactions more like purchases made using a secured/prepaid credit card because you must have money tied up so that you can spend money. And like a bank, the lightning node gets to decide if they want to route your transaction to it's final destination.

It's also incredibly likely ( and arguably confirmed based on https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/FinCEN%20... ) that BTC lightning nodes will be subject to the same rules and regulations as a traditional bank. If so, it's yet another centralizing force on BTC's version of Lightning. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking banks here. Banks are useful and KYC/AML are often good things. I'm just saying, "lightning btc" couldn't be further from cash.

[ChainOfFools]

I would add to that some explanation as to why the proposed decentralization of custody, control and leverage inherent in any cryptocurrency proposition should be expected to remain stable indefinitely rather than collapse into a conventional, de facto centralized model under the inexorable pressure of competition to derive profit from such a system

[michaelsbradley]

How about pure development work to build tools that can be used to experiment with and build atop decentralized technologies such as IPFS and Ethereum blockchain, etc.?

https://embark.status.im/

https://github.com/embark-framework/embark

[k__]

IPFS seems to solve an actual problem without too much overhead tho...

[michaelsbradley]

See: https://github.com/MetaMask/metamask-extension/pull/4405.

[ericflo]

I have a bunch of data backed up on the Sia file storage marketplace. Works fine for that purpose for me today.

[fourstar]

You just described literally anything new.

[808sunset]

I realize the word “shonk” in Australia is used without any ethnic meaning, but in some places it does have and can be offensive.

I point this out not to be a busybody or to take offense, but just mention it for anyone else who might have thought “that’s some interesting slang” and start using it

[feanaro]

> I associate crypto with shonk, which puts keybase.io in the "this is a crypto thing? Hmmm.... shonky." category.

This is unnecessary bias, though. If you look past the drama, cryptocurrency is a powerful and useful invention.

[gumby]

> cryptocurrency is a powerful and useful invention.

Can you explain? Intellectually interesting? No question. But powerful or useful (I consider them synonyms)? I'd like to see some actual examples.

This is genuine curiosity, not snark. I'm on the board of a blockchain startup who has a legitimate application for a blockchain -- an aspirin. But this application could have been done 20 years ago if there hadn't been patent issues for hash chains. And while the engineers are enthusiastic to do a coin nobody can explain why someone else would want to buy one, except in the hope that someone someday would pay more for it.

I've seen a few vaguely interesting applications cor crypto currencies, but they are all been at best 'vitamins'. I've yet to see an 'aspirin'.

[astrolince]

Of course you don't understand, because you don't need them, you can't understand freedom of expression if you never had anything to say, you can't understand privacy if you never had anything to hide, if you were living in a country like mine, Argentina, you would understand immediately the incredibly useful thing that Bitcoin is.

I have a Swiss bank in my pocket, in a country that steals all your savings every ten years and the central bank destroys you with inflation.

I have an international payment system, I can send and receive money in minutes to whomever I want, without asking permission from anyone, without the government or the bank stealing it from me. From a place where it is sinful to take your money out of the country.

It's the difference between existing or not in the world, and you have no idea how incredible it is to be able to pass an Argentine crisis without your family suffering hunger, no centralized system could give me something similar at such a low cost.

[sphinxpy]

I really hope this statement gets people to think about the crypto realm in a different way. What you described is exactly why I see this as a tool for revolutionary progress.

Not so long ago, you would have had little to no option and would have been a victim of oppressive systems. This technology allowed you to overcome something people have been helplessly outmatched by for a hundred years.

I am glad you shared this and sincerely hope you the best.

Its worth noting that many "western" cultures are becoming more hostile to their citizens, removing privacy and many things our parents and grandparents took for granted. We should be embracing things that gives us privacy.

We already have banks and payment systems playing alongside thought police. Saying something that is dissent has gotten people to lose their bank accounts [0]. I am not condoning these actions by this example but I am saying its becoming more normal. There are also issues with patreon dropping people over online political affiliation.

I don't know how many here follow the global economy but if you do, you will see the US economy is in a dangerous place. This commenter talks about the central bank taking his money and that can happen here with something call "bail-ins" [1] which takes money from account holders in the event of another "too big to fail" moment.

This may have been in Argentina but people should realize, that although you may not feel you need it today, you very well could need it I'm your country soon.

[0] https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/02/financial-tyranny-c... [1] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets-economy/090716...

[qqn]

Thanks for sharing this. From my first payments in crypto I immediately felt something huge had shifted in the world, exactly what you're talking about here. I hope you and yours are safe and secure.

[phyzome]

It sounds like Stellar would be a bad fit for your use-case, then, even while Bitcoin is useful.

[rickycook]

why is that? you can still interact with the stellar network with just xlm->xlm; you don’t have to pass it through and anchor to pay in some fiat-backed token

[phyzome]

Ah, OK. I've had a pretty hard time understanding Stellar's model. It seems pretty complicated.

[mirimir]

Basically, it's Internet money. So like the Internet, it's very difficult for governments to fsck with. They can try, of course, but there will always be levels of overlay networks that they can't touch. This is one aspect of the cypherpunk vision.

Being ~anonymous online, cryptocurrencies are my only option for buying and selling stuff online. Leasing VPN services, servers, VPS, etc. Getting paid for writing and other consulting work.

The speculation aspect is just meme-driven bullshit. What we need is cryptocurrencies with stable values, for online commerce. I'm not sure what you mean by "aspirin" vs "vitamins". But for me, getting out from under the thumb of government is extremely interesting.

[chrischen]

I’d rather call it internet “cash” rather than just internet money. We can use money online (credit card, paypal), but there’s so much consumer protection stuff that goes along with it that makes it hard to use like paper cash—irreversible, untraceable.m, unsanctioned usage.

Perfect for things governments hate: illegal stuff like extortion and drugs.

[mirimir]

> Perfect for things governments hate: illegal stuff like extortion and drugs.

That's true for anything that provides privacy and freedom.

[qqn]

> I'd like to see some actual examples.

I used Bitcoin to cover a flight a few years back when the only other options were PayPal or using a European bank deposit (0).

More recently I also paid for graduate studies in Bitcoin (1). Granted, it was for an MSc in cryptocurrency but the process was still just so... easy. I did it while in bed here in Canada to a university in Cyprus. It took about five minutes and the school converted the funds to euros right away. When I compare this to waiting 1-2 weeks to move funds from Canada to Europe for previous studies (as well as the ~€100 in fees), I can definitely see a bullish case for crypto, especially for bigger international payments.

0: https://www.airbaltic.com/en/payment-options

1: https://digitalcurrency.unic.ac.cy/admissions/financial-info...

[btown]

Are there any resources describing the patent issues for hash chains? Have patents expired, or does cryptocurrency somehow work around them?

[feanaro]

Sibling comments to this one have already written down most of what I would say myself. In short, I think having a way to transfer money anonymously and without control from the government an especially important capability.

[mirimir]

Yes!

Me, I associate the Internet with "shonk". And people, fundamentally, although AI could do it too.

Also, I hate the term "crypto". Crypto is a general term. As you say, it's "cryptocurrency". Just because most people are ignorant and meme-driven, there's no excuse to post like that here.

But whatever. Cryptocurrencies, as anyone who's been following them for more than a decade or two knows, are about money that's not controlled by governments, which can be used on the Internet, and which can be exchanged anonymously.

[dogecoinbase]

If something is primarily used for scams, it's a perfectly reasonable heuristic to associate it with scams.

I understand why Keybase is doing this (the attraction of cryptocurrency is profound, and not just because there's so much money being thrown around), but it not do anything for their credibility.

[jillesvangurp]

Understandable. But you have to consider that the Stellar foundation has been supporting keybase.io financially.

Also, your association of cryptocurrencies with scams is understandable given the sorry state of e.g. the Ethereum and EOS ecosystems which are dominated by get rich quick schemes, pyramid schemes, gambling apps, and other stuff. Not exactly enthusiastic about that myself.

However, among its peers, Stellar is relatively respectable in the sense that it has some serious corporate partners (i.e. normal legal entities in normal jurisdictions) and quite a few stable coins issued by fintech companies for the purpose of supporting international payments. And with support/involvement of regulators in many countries.

Additionally there seem to be some serious use cases emerging. The most significant of those would be IBM building a SEPA competitor on top of stellar with dozens of international banks. But there are other applications as well.

Keybase associating with Stellar is not necessarily a bad deal for them as they get money without giving away shares (presumably). And given the nature of their technology, crypto wallets are a natural use case for them as the whole point of their platform is making key management usable for end users and crypto wallets are literally nothing else than key pairs.

[twohearted]

from TFA: "One year ago, we announced that Keybase is supported by the Stellar Development Foundation."

Don't have to look much farther for motives. However, may I suggest a slight amendment to your statement and thinking:

The association with keybase.io does much to give the appearance of credibility, trustworthiness and stability to cryptocurrency.

[StavrosK]

Sure, but unless cryptocurrency makes it into trustworthy software with legitimate uses instead of just speculation, it's always going to remain dodgy.

I really wish all the speculators just went away.

[caprese]

so weird that we live in two totally different worlds, this was a completely benign announcement to me, but to you all of this cognitive dissonance has flooded your mind

what I saw: Hm Stellar has a Development Fund, and people within Keybase' engineering team that wanted cryptocurrency security to be easier so less people get scammed

what you saw: questionable corporate goals because things involving cryptocurrency involve people getting scammed

fascinating, to say the least, it is a perspective.

[fmajid]

Exactly. I haven't used them until now, I will make sure to actively avoid them now.

To paraphrase Keynes, it's not good security policy to base it on the workings of a casino.