[AWebOfBrown]

A quote about salary, that I bookmarked as I could see myself making the same mistake:

"Salaries never stay secrets forever. Hiding them only delays the inevitable. Last year we were having a discussion at lunch. Coworker was building a new house, and when it came to the numbers it was let loose that it was going to cost about $700K. This didn't seem like much, except to a young guy that joined the previous year and had done nothing but kick ass and take names..." (edited for brevity).

"...The conversation ended up in numbers. Coworker building the house pulled about $140K base (median for a programmer was probably $125K), and his bonus nearly matched the new guy's salary, which was an insulting $60K -- and got cut out of the bonus and raise in January for not being there a full year, only 11 months.

Turns out he was a doormat in negotiating, though his salary history was cringeworthy. It pained everyone to hear it, considering how nice of a guy he was. In all honestly, $60K was a big step up for him. Worst of all, this wasn't a cheap market (Boston). The guy probably shortchanged himself well over a half-million dollars in the past decade. This was someone who voluntarily put in long hours and went out of his way to teach others, and did everything he could to help other departments like operations and other teams. On top, he was beyond frugal. Supposedly he saved something around 40% of his take home pay, despite living alone in Boston. He grew up in a trailer park.

He spent the next day in non-stop meetings with HR, his manager and the CTO. That Friday he simply handed in his badge without a word, walked out and never came back.

Until 3 months later. As a consultant. At $175/hour."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2439478

[stakhanov]

Salary-porn seems to be a category that generally gets a lot of attention on HN. Personally, I feel a bit ambivalent about it. Obviously it's useful to be able to compare & benchmark, because one should go into any decision-making process being well armed with information. But on the other hand: The information exchanged is never enough to truly contextualize the numbers appropriately, and it's a potential source of huge amounts of cognitive dissonance. You have to be pretty good at being a stoic to try to break the information down to something objective and not let it get to you.

For example: The $175/hour number you just mentioned, and the fact that you seemed to imply that you're taking it for granted that it represents a successful outcome would be clearly a source of cognitive dissonance for most people. -- If he manages to do 2000 hours at $175 every year, that would be $350k which would be impressive. But then it may be nothing: if it is a highly specialized thing where you don't manage to get a fulltime workload out of a year, where you might spend the majority of your time with non-billable hours for project acquision, where you maybe have to cover costs of travel or time & money for certifications, where you have to carry high risk, etc. etc. ...it is usually impossible to properly resolve such questions to the point where it's useful for benchmarking and for extracting conclusions that are actionable to yourself. But the cognitive dissonance remains.

[ido]

It's not 100% all the info you need, but as a rule of thumb $x/h as a consultant is similar to earning $xK/year (anecdotally it seemed to check out: I once asked HR to do the math with me to evaluate what kind of rates we can afford to pay freelancers compared to how much similar-role employees were making - I think the example used was that a freelancer paid €60/h would cost equivalent to the salary cost of an employee earning €65k/year).

The guy may not be making the equivalent to a $175k/year salary but he was almost certainly making a lot more than he previously was at $60k.

[HenryBemis]

I won't downvote, I want your opinion to be visible so other people can read this. I am one of those 'suckers' that left a job/career (call it what you will) in the Big4 to go solo.

Apart from boosting my annual income x4, I am no longer involved in backstabing, politics, shitstorms, and other permanent employment 'pleasantries'. The C-levels who sign my invoices keep me out and away from all that. I have gained their trust and they keep me around to get-the-job-done. I do get some surprises every now and then, but nothing I can't dance around those. The gig economy (up to a level) works for me.

>where you don't manage to get a fulltime workload out of a year

I only NEED to work 3 months in a year, and spend the other 9 sitting on my behind doing my hobbies. Of course I work as much as possible (8h/day - 5d/week) and I do take some time off (by European 'standard'). I found it that once I start monitoring the contracting market, getting weekly alerts, see the trends, etc. it is possible to build on your existing skillset to make sure you remain relevant. E.g. anyone in Europe with a good GRC knowledge had plenty of time to get in shape for GDPR.

[stakhanov]

I wasn't arguing against being a consultant, merely pointing out that an hourly rate of a consultant is something where a bit of context is needed in order to be able to interpret the number, and that a consulting rate can easily seem high compared to an implied hourly rate received by a fulltime employee in a low-risk environment if the context is unknown or misunderstood. -- But the same is also true for comparing fulltime salaries, especially with onsite jobs, where cost of living, cost of real estate, tax regime, social security implications etc all have a huge role to play and make an apples-to-apples comparison difficult.

[tmaly]

> I found it that once I start monitoring the contracting market, getting weekly alerts, see the trends, etc. it is possible to build on your existing skillset to make sure you remain relevant

What data sources and techniques do you use to monitor trends?

[HenryBemis]

I have registered to services like Reed, or JobServe. I have some wide-enough searches that send automated reports, and some very narrow (e.g. "GDPR", "SOx"). It looks like spam, but it gives me a good idea of how many contracts are available, for which areas/domains, and at what rates. This way I can see when the market increases or drops for the narrow searches. The wider terms searches help me identify new and upcoming trends.

It looks tedious and time consuming, but after the first month, just scrolling through 3-4 emails gives me a pretty good idea of where the market is going.

[akulbe]

I would love to talk to you about what kind of work you're doing now.

[HenryBemis]

Audit/Security/GRC.

"I help companies pass their audits".

You tell me what audit you have to pass, and I will work with you to pass it successfully. It could be just a 3rd party audit you got coming up, or some regulatory/contractual requirement(s) you need to fulfull (PCI-DSS, VISA PIN, GDPR, HIPAA, SOx, ISOs, etc.)

You name it. We sit down, make a plan, put dates on that plan, put names and roles on that plan, provide the proper support/Sponsor and (with a little/a lot of pain) you pass the audit. But you PASS your audit. There is no miracle recipe, no 'feeding the multitude'. Good old smart and hard work.

[ryanmarsh]

Calling it "salary-porn" gives away the rest of your comment. I could have written it myself based upon the many conversations I've had with people here, and elsewhere, about salary.

For some reason many people are hostile to the idea that, at a minimum, you can make more money doing exactly the same thing for exactly the same company. Perhaps this shields them from the horror of the money they are most certainly leaving on the table, or the uncertainty of pursuing that money. The nice thing about being the lowest paid serf is the lord knows he's getting you for a song, or at least that's how the thinking goes.

I'll just leave you with this: I make a minimum of $3k per day. I am not special. I have an IQ of 118 which is probably low for HN. The difference is I've never accepted that what they're paying me is the most the company (or market) can bear. My first programming job out of the Army (with no education) was 50k/yr. My current rate is the result of 15 years of continually challenging the offered rate and searching for higher rates.

Today, I work part time and have tons of time for myself and my family. I'm so expensive that my clients honor my work and value my time. I know you'd prefer this lifestyle to the daily grind of 40+hrs, a middling salary, and little respect so why not test my model and see if it doesn't bear fruit for you.

[ohaideredevs]

You can't say you make 3k a day without explaining your career path a bit so us lowly serfs can emulate.

[balabaster]

Nor can you say it without quantifying the structure of your earnings... Where are you based, city/country? What kind of clients do you entertain? Also what industry/niche does your consulting empire cover?

I assume you're an incorporated consultant and the rate of $3K per day is gross revenue and not net income(?)

Certainly this is achievable, but people need to understand exact comparables so they're not comparing apples to oranges.

[ryanmarsh]

Ok, replying to you and next up line.

I do consulting, the kind I do is irrelevant because there are others with high bill rates too (I know of some iOS devs that make $2,500/day). I have friends who are Java devs making $250/hr. They're not dummies but they aren't exactly Linus Torvalds or Chris Lattner either.

Since you asked, I advise companies on how to implement certain development practices, things like DevOps, TDD, etc.. Before you totally write this off, hold your horses. I'm not saying this is THE path for you. It's one of many. I just happen to care a lot about how we work together to make software and I always found myself drifting into those discussions on the team.

I'm based in Houston, TX. I charge $3k - $5k per day. I usually pay my own travel expenses. I haven't been charging that for long and the first time I submitted a proposal at that rate I almost threw up I was so nervous. I work usually two weeks per month. I usually travel to my clients. I also sell support contracts where I offer them unlimited Slack and 1-2 calls per week. I offer them coaching, feedback, guidance. Sometimes it's pairing on building out a Jenkins pipeline, sometimes it's just explaining why "change fail percentage" is a good metric to track backed by industry studies.

I have a friend who couldn't join us for BBQ this weekend because he's traveling to SF just to visit with a former client who paid him something like $100k for a handful of Java classes he taught. I'd have to look at the invoices to know the exact amount and I have a call coming up. He went through my company. The nice thing is once you set up a company properly it becomes a vehicle for all sorts of financial endeavors. People think creating a company is scary and complicated and can really fuck you up. That's wrong. It's trivial to create a functioning company and the upkeep just to keep it compliant is absolutely minimal if it's incorporated in a state like Texas.

If you've read this far, here's the golden nugget. I wish someone had told me what I'm about to tell you.

1. Follow the things that really interest you, not in your head, the things that make your heart pound. Maybe that's picking up certain types of stories in the sprint, or helping a coworker with a certain kind of bug. While your energy will come and go, that thing that makes your heart pound will always be there. It's connected to your calling, which you might not understand until you're in your 40's (like me).

2. Always ask for more money. Ask nicely, and after you deliver something of value. The company ALWAYS can afford to give you more. If giving you $20k more will bankrupt the company then your company is dying and you're going to be out of a job anyway. People who aren't business owners (myself included at one time) do not comprehend the decision flow business owners take. Ask for the money until they don't have any more. It is more ethical than letting them waste it on another kegerator for the office. Programmers in particular have a very skewed sense of the value they provide. Even a mediocre programmer is worth 10x his salary. You have no idea how valuable you are to a smart business person. Instagram had 30 employees when it was sold for $1B. Think about that.

3. Be polite and talk about the things that interest you with others. Share what excites you. It will be genuine and people will like that. It will link you up with the kind of people you should be linked up with.

4. Only invest time in the people with the most potential. Don't waste your time having coffee with people who aren't passionate, smart, hard working, or creative. This means avoid shit-magnets/pin-cushions. Within 10 years these high potential people will pay off for you in multiples. For me they've become great friends and have fed me most of my business. Back then they were just "I like this person".

5. Show your work. Imposter syndrom is lies you tell yourself in the absence of valuable feedback. Make things, no matter how flimsy or unfinished, and show them to people. A Russian guy once told me "never show unfinished work to an idiot". So show your work, just don't show it to idiots. Every single time I've had the courage to show smart people things I was tinkering with it has led to an opportunity.

6. Be courageous. Learn to do things you know to be wise, even when they're scary.

7. Be patient. It's the journey not the destination.

I know this all sounds like horse shit but how many times have you heard these exact things from "successful" people before? Did you ever stop to ask yourself why? Maybe they're good principles. Maybe they actually work. If I told you the "path" to where I'm at and you tried to follow it you'd most certainly fail because the world is so complex that the correct answer (in discrete steps) is only knowable after the fact. The only thing you can do is be guided by principles that bear good fruit. Follow your heart, ask for more money, be polite, invest in potential, show your work, be courageous, be patient.

From the bottom of my heart I wish you the best. If you ever would like to chat I'll happily hop on a zoom and share as much as I can with you. I want you to find as much joy and financial reward in your endeavors as I have found in mine. God bless.

[wwweston]

> "Imposter syndrome is lies you tell yourself in the absence of valuable feedback."

This sentence alone is a worthwhile comment, though the rest is great too. Thank you.

[balabaster]

Thanks, this is all valuable and my own experience bears this out. People looking to take the next step up should pay attention to this wisdom. You say you usually charge $3K-$5K per day, what do you use to determine your rate? That's quite a large spread, so I assume you have some metrics that you use to determine this.

[tomp]

A vary favourite-worthy comment in a thread about favourite-worthy comments. So meta, it pleases my geeky mind. Kudos!

[ohaideredevs]

Appreciate the reply.

[akulbe]

I'd love to talk to you more about this.

[raztogt21]

Thanks for taking the time to write this.

[ryandrake]

It’s called salary-porn because like actual porn, its attention-grabbing, often tantalizingly exaggerated and phony. Everyone on HN knows someone who knows someone who makes $500K at Facebook, and therefore that’s a totally normal salary that anyone can achieve. Last week it was $450K. I guess next week, $3K a day is going to be the standard rate for developers here.

To a developer who makes, say, $120K (which at least in the Bay Area is around median based on Salary.com and Glassdoor), that kind of claim is an emotionally-charged fantasy: provocative, maybe a little humiliating, but ultimately empty and unattainable. Again, fits the “porn” theme pretty well.

I’m not saying you’re a phony. Maybe you do make an enormous amount of money. If so, congrats, you are an outlier among outliers. I don’t see how talking about it adds any more value than talking about how you’re any other kind of fortunate outlier, like a hotel heir or lottery winner.

[ryanmarsh]

Your comment really saddens me. There’s so much more you could have. There’s no reason why what I make has to be an outlier. I’m so so so not special. Many people have come on HN to say exactly what I’ve said and have achieved outsized results. Jesus, is patio11 really that incredible of a guy? I mean, he’s really nice and pretty smart but dude he made his start with a bingo card creator.

Our mindset is our greatest limitation.

[virgilp]

You are right in lots of stuff but you are probably underselling your skill combo. You are probably good (even if not great/amazing) at more than one thing - not just managing projects, but also sales, and maybe marketing too. You are probably right to say that there are other people better than you at any one of those things, but for the full combo, the story changes. It's easy to say "learn sales", and indeed it does not necessarily require very high IQ... but it may require that you change who you are. And that's extremely hard, if possible at all.

[ryandrake]

> Our mindset is our greatest limitation.

That, and the nature of distributions. Salaries are not exactly normal, but there’s still a long tail on the right, with only enough room for a few. Some people find it fun to read/dream about being over on that tail, just like some people aspirationally watch Keeping Up With The Kardashians.

If outsized results were achievable by merely applying hard work, adopting certain principles or following articulable steps, more of us would be able to show outsized results. Even for athletes, more training and better mindset means better performance but not necessarily outsized performance. There are only so many Olympians and pro ball players to go around and the farther right you go on the tail, the more of a factor random chance is.

[johnchristopher]

Just an anecdote: I sometime drop to friends and acquaintances that salary is one of the last taboo in our modern western society but it's a really strong one. Either it ends there with a joke comment or it sparks a conversation about an individual's worth in society and among friends.

[hobofan]

I'm wondering if that's a "previous generation" thing that's slowly going away, or if I'm just living in a bubble. I know (or have known and forgotten) the salary of most people in my extended peer group (25-30 year olds mostly). If the topic we are talking about is jobs, or a new job someone got, the person usually either flat out says it, or someone in the group will ask with little hesitation.

[johnchristopher]

How much do you and your extended peer group earn ? My initial reaction is that if you earning well above average and your peers as well then it's way easier than sharing that info with people earning way less. Or if you earn above the minimum wage but not by much you won't share with that SV hotshot.

[hobofan]

Anything from 2k€ - 20k€/month, so pretty varied. This is from very varied backgrounds in different industries (software engineering over caregiver to business consulting), different education levels, and also got to know them in very different ways (high school; job; friend of a friend). All in Germany, which I think is about as secretive about salaries as the US traditionally, but also spread out across all parts of the country.

This is why I thought it might be a generational thing, as that's the only common denominator I was able to make out.

[ido]

I live in Germany as well & haven't noticed people being that eager to share their salaries (although it's also not that hard to find out).

[Radle]

Even here in Germany where salary talks are serious taboos, the younger generation is definitely more open about it.

I had people repeatedly asking me for my salary after accepting a new job. I think things have seriously changed.

[ohaideredevs]

It just goes to show that people DO associate their worth with their salary. I talk about my salary with my friends because we realize that it's all kind of a crapshoot and/or a matter of choosing whether or not to sell your soul.

[johnchristopher]

That's a point I usually bring in the conversation: for all our talk about equality, sharing resources, etc. we still tend to associate with people who earn in the same bracket.

[grecy]

Keeping salaries secret is exactly the same as giving candy to a child and saying "Don't tell anyone about this".

In both cases, the person giving the pay/candy has something to gain if it stays secret and the person on receiving end is being manipulated.

[agumonkey]

I have a similar mindset, I hate money games.. it voids my soul. Money at best buys you peace of mind and I don't understand how societies ended up creating noise to justify this.

[ignoramous]

I feel you, and you might not be alone. Apologies for unsolicited advice:

It is better to heed to reality sooner. One way to do that is not to change the way you think, but the way you live [0][1]. Modify your work and life such that you can make the maximum out of what the world has to offer [2].

Another interesting insight is the fact that the conclusion arrived to from a problem is not always the right one. For instance, when Henry Ford asked customers what they wanted, they said 'faster horse' when in reality they wanted to get from point A to point B as fast as possible. If you think you hate money games, perhaps it's worth being inquisitive about how you arrived at that conclusion-- what's the underlying cause: is it because you find the economic system is rigged, or because you have had bad luck with money and investments, or you have seen money gained by folks around you through means you don't agree with, or...

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19589434

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16693885

[2] http://paulgraham.com/wealth.html

[agumonkey]

> conclusion arrived to from a problem is not always the right one

Very true. I'm also very reflective about my own thinking process. Why I don't like money is that it's too relativistic. I can get money by doing something useless that someone believes has value. For instance neighbors pay me to do the most simplest tasks on their computers. To me this has no value, I now accept the money because I'm a bit angry as the world requires me to make money. In my few IT jobs I found the work was moot and drowned into accidental complexity. But that doesn't stop the world from playing the money game. Raises, politics, inflated product costs, improper jobs .. It happens in other places too. Basically a lot of sales is super dirty and driven by competition economics only.

Maybe it's not money but the average western person mindset that I have a problem with.

I find it very asocial and inhuman. I'd rather carry an old person's bag.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

I can get money by doing something useless that someone believes has value

I call this the "I'm smarter than them" fallacy. You think it's useless, they believe it has value. Why do you think they can't see it "your" way? Is it that you know something they don't (in which case, your knowledge clearly has value), or is it that they see something you don't, which then explains why they are willing to pay you for that "useless" work?

[alex7o]

Yes but the only known tried alternative, communism didn't work out very well.

[fragmede]

The Nordic model, while not totally free of problems, seems to be doing quite well, as does other models of, say, healthcare under systems which are less profit motivated.

[smolder]

That's really an oversimplification. There are orthogonal spectrums that any culture exists on --it's a lot more nuanced than a communism capitalism dichotomy.

[agumonkey]

Yeah, forget it. Above comment was more of a fart.

[EADGBE]

Henry Ford's "Faster Horse" story is a great one, but it isn't true.

I guess it's better than saying "Sometimes people don't know what they want".

https://hbr.org/2011/08/henry-ford-never-said-the-fast

[VWWHFSfQ]

> Money at best buys you peace of mind

money is the #1 stress factor in relationships and also just in general. having enough money goes a long way to eliminating whole classes of stress, mood, and other mental health problems. you don't have to be rich to be happy, but generally you do need to have enough money to live a satisfying life that you're not constantly struggling against.

[smolder]

People who can improve their income in a way that doesn't cause them stress, mood, mental and physical health problems are part of a well-insulated minority.

[preordained]

Yah, I'm just gonna go to my boss and say "more monies plz" or I'm going to go scour the market and try to trade up. I suppose if I just look at the number and ignore everything else the latter might be doable...but I do want a personal fit and some kind of stability. I suppose if I'm willing to pack my bags and start over every year or so I can keep this going and mitigate the effect of working places I hate for the sake of a big number.

Oh yah, and I have no high profile github stuff, nor am I a whiteboard wizard. I guess I should just "git gud" though, which I'm sure is a negligible stress investment with a guaranteed pay off?

/s Truly, I'm not allergic to the subject, but the cavalier attitude kills me sometimes. So much "What's the problem, peasants?"

[EADGBE]

FWIW, you don't need to be nearly as "gud" as you think you do; when you're a hot commodity in a market like we have for what we do. Though I commend your desire to stay somewhere stable.

Eventually, you get to a point where you're comfortable, and $10k begins to equate to more time off, less after-hours calls, etc. (and be worth more)

[JamesBarney]

I think the vast majority of people's mood, stress and physical health would improve if they had more money.

[agumonkey]

I think there's more at play here. I often find myself struggling because of this even though I'm not out of money. It's more a chaotic ever changing social context that creates uncertainty that money seems to ease virtually.

[agumonkey]

Pardon the joke, but just make more money so you can buy temporary wives.

When I said peace of mind, I meant having to avoid with stressful relationship. I wasn't thinking about intimate ones of course but it's not entirely different.

[siruncledrew]

Not to say this isn't true... it sounds like there is more to the story with this guy's salary history. If $125k is the ballpark median for a programmer in Boston, then how did the guy not notice he was getting <50% salary for the same role?

Some people aren't good at negotiating; that's understandable. But not knowing he was settling for such a pay-cut is almost appalling. That company must have enjoyed him being there knowing they pulled a fast one on him. Maybe there is some shady backstory here or something else influencing the situation..?

[ido]

I've worked in multiple companies (including current one) where there was a very wide distribution of salaries. This is not at all uncommon and a lot of people are clueless (partially because talking about wages is taboo).

I'm not surprised at all by stories like the OP's.

[ksec]

Being a nice guy to today's society often meant being that person in your story.

I am also one of them. And after all these years is still no good at salary negotiation. And unless you are exceptionally good and could afford to do consultation, ( which isn't really a thing in my country ) you still have to suck it up.

I know I am late. But I am starting to think may be claiming the ladder is a different set of skills.