[rqs]

It will be easier to understand if you've followed the movement.

Most of those companies are not forcing their employees to work 996 on paper. But if you don't, then first, your team leader will give you some hint to ask you to stay longer. If you still don't, you will be fired for any number of reasons (KPI is too low for example).

Because of that, the company actually don't need to force it's employees. It just keep giving them tasks which cannot be finished without work 996, plus some peer pressures (One of it is "Boss's still here, you can't leave").

Jack Ma's "forcing staff to work overtime are ‘foolish’" statement is basically the same thing: You need to fight for your own future. On the surface, it's correct, but underneath it, he's trying to make you believe Personal strive === Overwork.

It worth notice that Jack Ma also said "If you love your job, 12 hours is not very long" (“如果你热爱（工作），其实12个小时不算太长”[0]) just days ago. Hit: If you don't work 12 hours a day, you don't love your job.

Some background: Jack Ma is a lair who also likes to pretend to be a Life Advisor, he will sometime throw out some bullshit to convince others to sacrifice for him. You need to read between lines.

> “Those who can stick to a 996 schedule are those who have found their passion beyond monetary gains,” Ma wrote.

You see what's going on here :)

[0] https://finance.sina.com.cn/china/gncj/2019-04-12/doc-ihvhie...

Edited to fix some grammar problem. Hope that will make it easier to read. Thanks for pointing out :)

Yes, I fixed it again.

[p49k]

Because of that, the company actually don't need to force it's employees. It just keep giving them tasks which cannot be finished without...

This sounds exactly like the accounts of what it’s like to work as an Amazon delivery driver.

[acct1771]

Or a drive thru employee.

Or an Uber driver trying to make minimum wage.

Hm.

[volkl48]

A drive thru employee works a scheduled shift and when it's over they're done.

I don't see how that example works with this topic of overtime/overwork.

[lordlimecat]

Every foodservice place I ever worked in my youth got quite irate when someone worked more than 40 hours, because overtime is a lot more expensive than just hiring another worker.

[acct1771]

Most drive thru chains are using stopclocks to time how fast they get your food to you, from speaker to pull off..and it's not a reasonable metric.

[wavefunction]

Some fast-food employees even get benefits.

[exelius]

But like, if you were more passionate about your job, it would be more rewarding! Maybe not monetarily; but think of all the interesting people you get to talk to as an Uber driver!

[kingo55]

Do you think tough working conditions are leading Chinese tech workers to leave China in search of better work/life balance?

[feenix566]

The most recent episode of the Motley Fool Money podcast featured an interview with David Kuo in which he said manufacturers are leaving China for other asian countries because wages in China are rising. Rising wages is typically correlated with falling unemployment, which forces employers to provide better working conditions. So I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing Chinese tech workers moving to employers who treat them with more respect. That will be the end of 996.

[balabaster]

> "If you love your job, 12 hours is not very long... Hit: If you don't work 12 hours a day, you don't love your job."

First up, I'm not arguing against the fact that there are many many managers, bosses, directors and CEOs that use emotional manipulation to blackmail employees to do their bidding even though on paper they claim differently. They give it all sorts of names to make you believe this behaviour is okay. The most damaging use of emotive language makes you feel crazy for feeling the way you feel. This invalidation of your experience, of your feelings, is pulled straight out of the narcissist's playbook and it has a name - it's called gaslighting. Making you feel crazy and invalidating you for feeling the way you do. "If you loved this job, you'd do this for me. If you don't do this for me, you can't possibly love this job." Anyone who has escaped an emotionally abusive relationship will attest to how damaging this one technique is. It's often the tool of choice for a narcissist to maintain emotional control of their target.

It's tough to spot because usually the people at the top got there by being charismatic and motivational. They're charming and make you want to follow them... the same way they treat their partners to get them into a relationship before they invalidate them and make them feel crazy to keep control of them and keep them from leaving. The language they're using to make you follow them is manipulation and is also another tool lifted directly from the narcissist's playbook. Beware of the way people make you feel to get you to play along. When you start to feel like your feelings are crazy and that you feel guilty for not wanting to play along, chances are you're being manipulated using these tools.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/here-there-and-every...

Secondly, the first part of the statement Ma made, given my own experience is, to an extent, true: "if you love your job, 12 hours is not very long."

I tend to agree that if you're occupied by something you love to do or are fascinated by, 12 hours doesn't seem very long. My experience has been that it tends to go by in the blink of an eye. This statement can stand alone without any implication. I frequently work for 12-18 hours straight without even realizing I've done it and then wonder how I didn't even notice it had got dark and I've missed dinner.

However, the opposing statement that if you don't work 12 hours, you don't love your job just isn't true in my experience. There are days, honestly, where I'm fairly apathetic towards work and I struggle to sit in front of my computer for even an hour. This doesn't mean I don't love my job. It just means I don't love what needs to be done right now.

Just because all cats are mammals does not mean that all mammals are cats.

[rqs]

> This statement can stand alone without any implication

Here is the part of statement from Jack Ma for better context, you can judge it by yourself (full: https://finance.sina.com.cn/china/gncj/2019-04-12/doc-ihvhie...):

(Notice I have difficulties when translating Chinese word by word to English, because expression of the two language is different. But I'll make marks to help you understand)

> 今天我们拥有这么多资源，我们带着巨大的使命，希望在未来能够让天下没有难做的生意，你不付出可以吗？不可以。所以我们说，加入阿里，你要做好准备一天12个小时，否则你来阿里干什么？我们不缺8小时上班很舒服的人。今天我们要招一些8小时上班，每天坐在一个好的办公室，条件很好，食堂也不错，出去荣誉感也不错，这样的人满大街能找到。

> Today we have this huge amount of resource, and a heavily mission, a mission to build a world where people can do trade with ease. Can we do that without effort? No. Because of that, if you plan to join Alibaba, you have to get ready to work 12 hours a day, otherwise, what do you come here for? We have many people who work 8 hours a day comfortably (in the society. maybe? translator's guess). If today we going to hire some people for 8 hours/day job, and provide such good office, good condition ('condition' means "our company is better than others", translator's mark), good cafeteria and honourable title, a street full of people would wanted the job. (Translator's note: What he meant was: The job is honourable/decent, the office is good, the cafeteria is good, and all of those is not here for somebody who could only work 8 hours a day.)

> 但是我们需要的是什么？我们问你来这个公司到底想做什么？是改变自己、帮助别人、实现使命。

> But what we need? We ask you what you wanted when you join this company? The answer is to change yourself, help others, and make our mission a reality.

> 阿里早年也加班，但是我们加什么班？加学习的班，我们8小时工作以后，最主要晚上是复盘、学习。我们今天做错了什么、什么事情应该修复，我们应该互相怎么学习。我们8小时以外的两个小时、三个小时是学习、提升，而不是去加班。

> During the early years, we at Alibaba also work long hours, why? We have to learn after a day's work is done. We learn what we did wrong, what need to be fixed, and how we learn from each other (Translator's note: Should be "Learn from our mistakes, learn how to fix the mistakes and learn from each others"). The extra 2 to 3 hours after work is for learning and advancing our knowledge, not overwork.

> 我希望阿里人热爱你做的工作，如果你不热爱，哪怕8个小时你都嫌很长，如果你热爱，其实12个小时不算太长。

> I hope Alibabaers (Translator's note: employees) love the work you do, if you don't, even 8 hours is too long for you, but if you do (love your job), 12 hours is not very long.

[balabaster]

Loose interpretation of your translation: We want you to sacrifice your personal life to make Alibaba's dream come true. If you don't want to, that's fine, there's plenty of people on the street who will.

That's fine, I don't want to work at a place like that. I work hard, really fucking hard. I'm good at what I do. I've made a name for myself because I work hard to be the best I can be at what I do. I give back every time I can. I mentor. I send the elevator back down as often as I can. If a company doesn't come looking for me because of the reputation of commitment I've spent the last 35 years pouring my blood, sweat and tears into building, I don't want to work for them.

You can have your people on the street and treat them as slaves and you'll get the quality of work out of them you can expect out of a sweatshop. I will go somewhere that my contribution is valued.

[brianpgordon]

> During the early years, we at Alibaba also work long hours, why?

A hell of a lot more equity than the average Alibaba worker gets today?

[drukenemo]

Nice comments, but may I suggest that you check your spellings before posting? Lots of things I had to interpret what you meant to say based on mispellings.

[rqs]

Sorry, I'm not a native speaker, that may lead to some problem because Chinese grammar can be very different to English. Maybe I should start to use grammarly from now on.

Sum up the post:

1. What Jack Ma is trying to do, is equalizing Personal strive and overwork (for him).

2. In China, company have many ways to force employees stay in long hour without literally say so. For example "When boss don't leave, you don't leave", and/or giving out tasks that you can't finish without overwork.

[alistairSH]

I have to assume drunkenemo is trolling because your English is as good as many native speakers (at least when it comes to casual online communication). There are signs you aren't a native speaker, but nothing that makes your post hard to understand or in any way distracting.

[rqs]

Maybe that's because I got my English mode fully warmed up during the editing process. Don't blame drunkenemo :)

[wavefunction]

Your English is fine. Native English speakers' writing is often replete with typos and misspellings and improper grammar.

[acct1771]

Think twice about Grammarly, especially if you're a professional...

You're doing fine for nonnative, just still mildly noticeable.

[npo_]

In case you're not trolling, it's likely that the commenter you're replying to doesn't speak English as a first language.

Considering the topic of this post (and the hanzi in their comment), I'd venture to say s/he speaks some dialect of Chinese as a first language.

[drukenemo]

I’m not trolling, can’t I give feedback to someone? It didn’t look like misspellings from a non native (e.g. catle vs cattle), but from rushed typing (e.g. he truned back). He fixed his post now, so I’m making due with examples to illustrate where I was coming from.