[sametmax]

I read that as "the problem with semver is it's not perfect". Well yeah. But no semver is worse: upgrading is hard enough when devs communicate on what breaks, but when they don't, it's just a nightmare.

Semver get 80% of the job done. The 20% will still suck but Pareto and I agree that it's a pretty good deal given the effort.

[stonogo]

You should be reading it as "the problem with semver is that it does not solve the problem it purports to solve."

An 80% solution in this problem space is correctly interpreted as "there's a 20% chance an upgrade will break my business." From a risk-management perspective, at least calendared versioning implies that you'll have to do your own homework on which upgrades are incompatible, which is at least more honest than ineffective rigor.

[eikenberry]

Are you saying that knowing that there is an 80% starting chance of it not breaking anything is not any better not knowing that? That knowing that the devs don't think anything will break or not is worthless? And that is not counting the times when they do bump the major version to tell you it will probably break something.

The 100% solution you imply as a strawman here doesn't exist and some information is better than no information. And no one said Semver means you don't test, it just guides you on the expected behavior of the new release.

[fgonzag]

> An 80% solution in this problem space is correctly interpreted as "there's a 20% chance an upgrade will break my business."

Maybe if you deploy directly to production before any testing is done.

[fwip]

An 80% solution means you have 80% fewer unexpected breakages.

[lifthrasiir]

I think the language-backed semver can be useful (I really want Cargo to support this mode!). The general unguided semver seems less useful.

I envision a much simplified alternative (or analogue) to the semver: there is a single decimal revision, and you should strive to be compatible back to the first revision. When you are willing to break the compatibility, you simply rename. This is similar to Go's practice but can be technically made compatible to the three-part semver (by encoding minor and patch versions to the decimal).

[lugg]

This is my issue with semver. I don't care about minor non breaking change, just give me the latest.

Breaking change is the only thing I want to know about so realistically I only need to worry about major version updates right?

So lib: 1.* Should be fine, right?

But it's not and when people quip well you should have pegged your versions it's like what? Maybe you shouldn't have broke backwards compat?

[sametmax]

You assume software is perfect and people don't make mistake. Breaking compat on accident happens. Bad pushes and releases exist. Unpatched bugs in latest. Wrong deployments.

Semver make it easier to spot/prevent mistakes by giving you more granular information. It's not like it's a data overload, so "too much info" as argument is really weird.

Purity in computing is a terrible master.

[lugg]

> Breaking compat on accident happens.

Semver would be what? Tests should catch it. Mine or yours.

> Bad pushes and releases exist.

Semver would be what? Tests should catch it. Mine or yours.

> Unpatched bugs in latest.

Semver would be what? Tests should catch it. Mine or yours.

> Wrong deployments.

Semver would be what? Tests should catch it. Mine or yours.

> Semver make it easier to spot/prevent mistakes by giving you more granular information.

None of those things are fixed by semver. What is the point of semver again?

The only thing I, as a user, give any crap about is breaking change. i.e. major version numbers.

So why not just have one or two levels?

[pvinis]

One level is great and enough. Version X is nice.

Oh you care about breaking changes? Ok then for you we will have two levels. Version X.Y it is. For the person above that doesn't care about breaking, two levels still work.

What? You want to show your audience/clients/users that an update contains something interesting for them like a feature, and separate it from a simple typo-fix release? I guess we are adding another level then. Version X.Y.Z is here.

You see, semver is not the ideal way for everyone, but it's the way that everyone can use as they want. As a receiver of a version, you can care about if it's a feature or no, breaking or no, and you set your requirement to a specific number, or ^a number or ~a number etc. As a creator of a version, in order for everyone to work with semver the way they like it, we should be good citizens and try to signify what this version has. Even if you don't care about breaking changes or showing if you just added a feature, try to signify it in your version string. It will help someone.

[beatgammit]

Sometimes breaking backwards compatibility is necessary. For example, if a function in a standard library has an error case that the initial version ignored (happened in Go), you can't start emitting errors when you used to guarantee that it wouldn't error. Or if there's a fundamental flaw in a function that cannot be fixed without a signature change.

People ignore deprecation warnings, so the best way forward is often to break compatibility.

I agree that breaking compatibility should be avoided, but it shouldn't be completely out of the question. It needs to be frequent enough that your anticipate it, but not so frequent that you lose users. And you should try to have a bridge between old and new versions (e.g. Rust's "editions" seem like a good idea).

[Pfhreak]

Then it should be a major version change, right?

[lugg]

> People ignore deprecation warnings, so the best way forward is often to break compatibility.

People don't ignore deprecation warnings, they vehemently disagree with their existence. Why the fuck are you taking functionality away from me?

Don't like your thing? Make a new one. The old one isn't hurting you. And if it is, make a new one.

> the best way forward is often to break compatibility.

This is NEVER the best way forward, this is some next level idiotic shit.

> I agree that breaking compatibility should be avoided, but it shouldn't be completely out of the question.

Why not? What in your world view makes this OK? I'm using your software because it solves a problem. I'm not using it so you can make more work for me.

If linux can make backwards compat guarantees since 0.1 then so can libraries like leftpad.

> It needs to be frequent enough that your anticipate it, but not so frequent that you lose users.

Jesus christ, if you think of your users like this I don't think you really deserve them. Your users are why your thing exists, be grateful and stop shitting on their needs for stability.

[paulddraper]

> Don't like your thing? Make a new one. The old one isn't hurting you. And if it is, make a new one.

That is literally what a version is.

[lugg]

Yea except you lock your users at an old version, for what?

Are you supporting old versions?

You don't have to break backwards compat to release new stuff.

It takes some serious design flaws to create a situation where you need more than a handful of foo2 and foo can't be augmented with sane defaults for whatever new side effect is created by foo2.

[qes]

> you simply rename

That sounds like an awful idea that will result in people adding version information to the name, not to mention destroying discoverability.

[Certhas]

It seems like in this case you want to version API and program separately. API changes aren't the only thing people care about or that should be communicated in a version number. So semver would not just be "not perfect" but be actively misleading.

[cwilkes]

Then have a semver for the two different parts.

Ie “version 3.3.1 of Awesome Server supporting the 2.x api as well as 3.1.x”