[ebg13]

> When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible.

Uh huh. And how many years did it take to actually get Flexbox and CSS Grid? I mean...They're both still "Candidate Recommendations" in 2019. That's not even the penultimate level of recommendation. You definitely can't use Grid if you want broad compatibility; it was only first implemented in 2017. "People should update their software to the latest versions! And they should switch browsers to use one that supports my nonstandard features!" Oh, yes? Well they don't. And let's not even talk about Grid Level 2 which is implemented nowhere. We've gone through generations of faking markup with javascript because the dogma behind CSS has always been a terrible mess. "No tables for layout!" Ok, what else are you supposed to use to arrange things in grids? "Uhhh....give us a couple decades to get back to you on that."

When people say that CSS is terrible, they mean the actual standard parts, and they mean for the past 22 years.

[baddox]

> "People should update their software to the latest versions! And they should switch browsers to use one that supports my nonstandard features!" Oh, yes? Well they don't.

I mean, I agree that developers shouldn't feel entitled to have all potential visitors using the most up-to-date software, but it is also definitely true that there is almost never an excuse to be using a web browser that doesn't automatically update. Forget CSS features, it's a pretty big security concern.

[ebg13]

I kinda sorta almost agree and yet that's definitely not how the world works for all kinds of reasons that aren't the user's fault. Also, I find it supes weird that you responded to that part and not the part where it took two entire decades of "tables are evil" before we got the first CSS grid implementation that isn't even a standard yet.

[andrei_says_]

Financial, healthcare and gov institutions all have locked down workstations, often running ie 11 on windows 7.

Representing the very people who have the capacity to spend millions of $$ on my product.

[fouc]

Browser that automatically update are actually hostile to the end user. The biggest effect is that it has been making it easier to create walled gardens on the internet.

[rimliu]

You can use CSS grid just fine, it landed it the three major browsers at the same time. Only older IE will give you trouble, funny enough, because they were first to implement grid layouts.

[reaperducer]

"People should update their software to the latest versions! And they should switch browsers to use one that supports my nonstandard features!" Oh, yes? Well they don't.

And as long as Microsoft keeps shipping IE11, we're all doomed. Office drones aren't going to switch to something better until they're forced to.

I can't believe Windows 10 still has IE11.

[bshacklett]

Windows 10 doesn't have IE 11 as the primary browser, and I'm not sure it ever has.

IE is there for compatibility in enterprise environments. There are a lot of large organizations which still rely on older versions of SAP, Oracle and IBM applications, plus whatever ungodly niche vertical apps or in-house garbage was written back in the 90s.

Microsoft has to cater to this environment because it's been the lifeblood of the company for ages.

It's not all doom and gloom, though. I've had experience in some very large organizations, lately, which prefer Chrome. The landscape is beginning to change, but it will be a while, still, before evergreen browsers are the norm in the corporate world.

[xeeeeeeeeeeenu]

>Windows 10 doesn't have IE 11 as the primary browser, and I'm not sure it ever has.

LTSC/LTSB (LTS) versions of Windows 10 don't ship with Edge and it's not possible to install it. The same goes for Windows Server 2016 and 2019.

Microsoft made it impossible for enterprises to upgrade to Edge.

[Aeolun]

Office drones don’t have a choice either. What browser to use is fully based on inertia.

If there are 20 products that work in IE11, you won’t switch to Chrome just for your 21 product.