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by Octoth0rpe 2646 days ago
Re:Yang,

I'm vaguely sympathetic to the idea of "elect a business person so they can run government like a business", but any openness to the idea goes out the window when the candidate's business is venture capital.

18 comments

I'm taking a wait-and-see approach in general, but I do find Yang one of the most interesting candidates so far. Just to respond to this specific point, Yang wrote recently on Twitter [1]:

There are lessons and principles that government can take from business - like treating customers well and resource efficiency. But anyone who says they are going to “run government like a business” is dumb. They require very different forms of leadership.

As a CEO you can pretty much tell people what to do. You are their boss. You are paying them. If you say we are doing something then it generally happens. The downside is no one tells you unpleasant truths.

In government most all of the time you are building consensus. You provide a vision and try to rally people around it. You build relationships. You compromise. You appeal to common goals. Things often happen more gradually. But when big things happen they can improve many lives.

[1] https://twitter.com/AndrewYang/status/1107126100163858432

> like treating customers well

This has come up with the current president's most-dimwitted son and it's so hysterical it bears repeating. US taxpayers and voters are not the customer. They're the board.

Don't take this as a tacit defense of whichever son it was by any means, but: There are plenty of situations where the interaction between the government <-> constituents is very much like a business <-> customer relationship, and it's not totally insane to think that it could be a better/friendlier/more efficient one.

Example: Interactions with TSA, IRS, DMVs (state government obviously but a government nonetheless), etc.

I get what you're saying, but I think you also have to understand what Andrew Yang is implying (not particularly interested in looking up the quote from whichever son).

> This has come up with the current president's most-dimwitted son and it's so hysterical it bears repeating. US taxpayers and voters are not the customer. They're the board.

A closer analogy would be that the US government is a non-exclusive consumer coop, and the citizens are the customer-owners, non-citizen residents, visitors, and other tax-or-fee payers a lotre non-owner customers, and Congress is the board.

>US taxpayers and voters are not the customer. They're the board.

I think you mean the shareholders. Who elect the board (Congress). And vote for the CEO (President) who is accountable to the board and shareholders.

I think you're referring to Venture for America, which despite the name is not a venture capital firm.

https://ventureforamerica.org

A government run like a business loses the most important and necessary quality of a government: it can takr actions that are economically harmful to itself but helpful to society. It should maintain all roads, not just the ones used to transport goods. It should investigate even small crimes. It steps in when the market would cause a catastrophe (e.g., tragedy of the commons). Of course, money still exists, so the government restricts its reach within a budget.

Besides, the president's only tasks should be international diplomacy, commander of the military, and doing what the Congress says. They can be "ideas gals/guys," but he/she shouldn't be independently making huge decisions outside of war scenarios. That doesn't sound like a CEO to me.

I'm not so sympathetic to that idea in the first place. A business, particularly a corporation, is one of the most authoritarian structures ever devised. If the government were like a business, every citizen would be either an asset to be exploited or a liability to be eliminated.
Citizens would be the shareholders
Small shareholders (less than 0.01% holdings) have essentially no voice in a corporation's policy; nor are they a consideration for the board of directors. Sometimes they are the beneficiaries of policies that are satisfying major stockholders, but not in a big way.

No, this metaphor does not work.

In what way does that meaningfully differ from the way a democracy is supposed to be run? Shareholders are treated as "voters" in a democratic organization, where 1 share = 1 vote.
Despite the common wisdom governments tend to care a lot about citizens bitching. A friend used to work as a lawyer for a state utility board. They sit and listen to rants by 75 year old cat ladies and then consider how to mollify them.
So who gets the majority of shares in the country? Should it be the executives, or the funders? Maybe we should have a 1 vote per tax-dollar system.
Wait, I thought the way this whole "shares and CEO's" thing was supposed to work is that Moldbug would get to decide that, and everything would work just fine afterwards.
Being a small shareholder is even worse.
True, the shareholder role is certainly better than the "employee" role for example.
> shareholders

Shareholders have zero say in how modern corporations are run.

Why? Can't the vote? There is even such a thing as activist shareholders.
> I'm vaguely sympathetic to the idea of "elect a business person so they can run government like a business"

I really don't want a government that ruthlessly cuts costs that don't drive revenue and uses all mechanisms within reach to maximize lock-in and extract monopoly rents from customers.

Wasn't that a Trump campaign theme?

But anyway, it's not new. That was a lot of that maybe a century ago in the US.

That was the words that came out of Trump's mouth, but not what his supporters heard
Also, didn't we just elect another business person and see where we are.

Like it or not, we need politicians who can work across the aisle and actually get things done.

> Like it or not, we need politicians who can work across the aisle and actually get things done.

To work with someone across the aisle you have to have someone on the other side of the aisle who wants to work with you. The republicans have made it absolutely clear over the past decade that they will not work with Democrats. Centrist Democrats need work with their colleagues to their left if they want to accomplish anything.

A booming economy with low inflation and low unemployment?
The rewards of which largely go to executives and shareholders, not rank-and-file employees? Sure, sounds like a business.
Who are “shareholders?” Pretty much anyone with a retirement plan or a pension.

The majority of Americans own stock.

Not quite. 54% of the 135M American workers have a retirement plan.[1] That's 73M out of the ~250M American adults. Maybe you can call that the middle class. But point taken. To be less pithy, these individual shareholders have little power to sway governance, particularly if their stock is held in a managed fund. The rich, connected shareholders steer things, and it's not always in the interests of the company in the long term.

1. http://www.pensionrights.org/publications/statistic/how-many...

The vast majority of Americans derive the lion’s share of their income over most of their lifetime from selling their labor, not from capital returns, whether from stock alone or any other combination of capital.
It was booming in 2016 too.
That is such a joke. What does "booming economy" really mean? Mostly the stock market, I think. And "low unemployment"? It's low because people who have given up looking aren't counted. And because it includes lots of short-term and poorly compensated jobs.
That's more thanks to the Fed than anything else, though their role is also pretty small. The truth is the president doesn't have the ability to affect the economy very much one way or the other.
Unemployment, economy, stock market, GDP - all have been on the exact same trajectory post the 2009 recession. We would have been exactly here even if a tree was the President. The only thing that got worse economically was the Federal deficit, which is a trillion dollars now.
"low inflation" ... not if you include assets (stocks, houses, education, health[care], etc.) that are not included in the "official" inflation calculations.
> work across the aisle and actually get things done

If the proposed action is part of / agreeable with the $opposing_party platform, I don't think I _want_ it to get done; with extraordinarily few exceptions.

I'd prefer someone who can push forward without compromising the point of the platform.

Also, didn't we just elect another business person

One with multiple bankruptcies too!

The problem here comes when there's no possible state of compromise that would make even anyone at all happy. For example, on a border wall: you build it to be functional, or you don't. A non-functional border wall is essentially not a border wall.

There's no compromise state; instead, there's at best some kind of tit-for-tat, where you'll concede something else in exchange for your most important plans.

That's because a border wall is too specific for a policy platform. The more general concept of border security provides plenty of room for compromise.

But even a wall provides room for compromise--physical barriers in some places but not others.

A non-functional border wall also pleases nobody. It’s not a great compromise at all.
Arguably, Donald Trump is more of a media celebrity through inherited wealth that was funneled through mock business transactions for tax evasion than an actual businessman the way Yang is, but I'm not sure people are prepared to make the distinction, so that might be an effective political line against Yang even if it's not all that true in any relevant sense.
Trump isn’t really a business person, he just plays one on TV :P
Trump is a business person in the same way that the Kardashians are business people. They have businesses, but they are, first and foremost, celebrities.
This comment doesn't make sense since Andrew Yang has no background in venture capital.
His primary business was a test prep company he sold to Kaplan. As far as I know he did not own or work for a VC firm.
I haven't seen this "run govt like a business" idea outside the U.S (or maybe I just missed it).

Biz and govt are two separate things, I don't understand how one can be run like the other. Sure, there are some overlaps, but thats about it. Can someone explain?

One of the major political factions in the US has spent decades at this point deriding career politicians. It's been a decent strategy inside of that faction, but other factions point out that career politicians actually develop tools to get shit done (as any career-minded individual would). So at some point you have to combat the argument that you're running inexperienced individuals vs. experienced individuals, and advancing the argument that "business leadership actually exceeds govt leadership in getting stuff done" is an attempt to turn that weakness into a strength.

I'm being charitable that no one actually believes that garbage at it's heart, but the other explanation might be garden-variety insanity.

A reminder that the political faction spending decades deriding career politicians is mostly made up of career politicians
When invoked by laypersons, it usually means "don't run a deficit at all, and cut 'useless' (to me, so far as I know) programs". Arts funding and foreign aid are popular first candidates for the chopping block.

I don't know what it means when politicians say it, aside from being an appeal to the above. Possibly they mean the same thing.

[EDIT] incidentally, it's almost entirely associated with the Right. Unusual to see it brought up as a point in favor of a Democrat.

[EDIT EDIT] awinder probably nailed what it means when politicians say it, and/or why it's an idea some of them have promoted.

Governments can contain businesses, and those businesses should run sort-of like businesses. They should care about customers. Ideally, not at a huge deficit.

In Canada, this is called a "crown corporation".

Canadian examples include CATSA (like the TSA), CBC (TV network), VIA Rail (like Amtrak), LCBO and Ontario Cannabis Retail Corporation (provincial monopolies on alcohol and marijuana sales, respectively).

In addition to what's been mentioned already, another implication is that _politicians are just in it for themselves_, they just want power. They want to get a cushy government job, they want to give handouts to their friends, they want to give handouts to people to vote for them, by running deficits that a business never could get away with. Sometimes the more businesslike candidates sell themselves as outsiders who know how to get things done, and are already successful, so they're not vying for this job to just collect a paycheck.

In theory, at least some of this makes sense. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like businesspeople who have "made enough money" tend to show any desire to rest on their laurels and decide enough is enough. And a businessperson who runs for office is just as likely as anyone else to be running to get power and notoriety.

And of course, businesses do well by leveraging debt. And they have handouts and nepotism and corruption.

Capitalism is our religion. It’s so much a part of our culture (identity), people aren’t aware of it.
People that are heavily corrupted respond to criticism of neoliberalism/capitalism the same way fundamentalists respond to heresy.
Andrew Yang has never worked for a VC as far as I can tell. What are you referring to?
I don't think his business really is venture capital, though. What exactly are you referring to?

At least, if you're talking about Venture for America, it's more of a YC or TechStars. It's a non-profit designed to help entrepreneurs start companies.

Prior to that, I think he was the CEO of Manhattan Prep before it getting acquired by Kaplan.

"Run the government like a business" was Ross Perot's mantra. Was quite popular for a while, but didn't work out so well in the end. That's probably more because he sort of went insane during the campaign rather than due to a a reasoned choice the voters made about that philosophy.
Why though? I would like my government to be open to at least listening to lots of different ideas and applying an investment mindset to them. You're right, there is little operational experience that comes with being a VC. But you dont need that to initiate groundbreaking projects. Hoover didn't pour concrete at the Hoover Dam. Kennedy didn't know the rocket equation.
> You're right, there is little operational experience that comes with being a VC.

Operational experience is not my concern.

> applying an investment mindset to them

This is my concern. I don't trust people in the VC industry to have a healthy concept of an investment mindset.

Understood. Would like to hear your thoughts on why VC does not have a healthy investment philosophy.
>but any openness to the idea goes out the window when the candidate's business is venture capital.

Or being the activist investor that breaks up the business and sells what's profitable.

> elect a business person so they can run government like a business

I mean, didn't we try that already, and quite recently for that matter? It doesn't seem to be working very well. What makes you think that Yang can do better than that?

"elect a business person so they can run government like a business"

This is a terrible idea for a society. Typical businesses are internally dictatorships that are single-minded, intolerant of dissent, very controlling (my employer reads my E-mails and lately they are setting up a ton of cameras) and are designed to funnel rewards to only few people. That's not a good mindset to run a whole country. We can't just lay off people to cut costs.

I think that's why Trump seems to get better along with dictators like Erdogan, Putin or Kim Jong Un than with democratic leaders. their leadership is much closer to what he is used from his business.

Running government more efficiently would be nice but I don't see the ex-business people who got elected into government do better than other politicians.

How about Real Estate?
He doesn't want to run the government like a business, and he's not a venture capitalist.