What tooling? Being forced to use InteliJ, without any proper support on Eclipse and Netbeans?
Still not able to use several of Android Studio features available to Java, like incremental compilation and slim APKs?
Kotlin advocates seem to forget JVM will never be rewritten in Kotlin, the language is just yet another guest, with the usual syndrome to wrap existing libraries, having to take care about FFI for Java access, not having all features taking advatange of the latest bytecodes, e.g. lambdas implementation.
As for Kotlin/Native, there is nothing to worry about versus what Go, Rust, C++, Dart, D, Nim offer in terms of performance, libraries and in some cases tooling.
Having to buy CLion for a graphical debugger isn't a selling point versus the established alternatives.
Fuchsia is being written in Go, Rust, C++ and Dart, with the team now hiring for node.js support.
>What tooling? Being forced to use InteliJ, without any proper support on Eclipse and Netbeans?
Seeing that both Eclipse and Netbeans are now more or less dead (and speaking as a long time Eclipse user, from the very first version to around 4), yes, first class vendor-direct InteliJ support is more than enough. And more than most languages (including Groovy) ever had.
>As for Kotlin/Native, there is nothing to worry about versus what Go, Rust, C++, Dart, D, Nim offer in terms of performance, libraries and in some cases tooling.
IMHO, Rust will always be kind of niche as hard to tackle, Dart we'll see, D never went anywhere, and Nim will remain niche, it's a little too idiosyncratic to catch on.
Kotlin is already more popular than all of the above except perhaps Go.
>Fuchsia is being written in Go, Rust, C++ and Dart, with the team now hiring for node.js support.
Fuchsia is still vaporware or at least irrelevant. It's not even in the market yet. And the fact that it's written in 4 (and looking for 5th) languages doesn't really bring much confidence.
Groovy had Netbeans and Eclipse support, which was dropped when it started fading away.
We move in different worlds, no InteliJ installations around here.
I remember when Groovy was popular, with every JUG in Germany having weekly talks and Sun talking how the next JEE revision would support Groovy for writing beans.
>Groovy had Netbeans and Eclipse support, which was dropped when it started fading away.
I know, I've used it. What I said is that it did not have the first class IDE attention of a major vendor, those were mostly third party sub-par plugins compared to the Java focus of those IDEs. For Kotlin, however, it was first class IDE support as a primary concern from the start.
>We move in different worlds, no InteliJ installations around here.
Then we indeed move in different worlds.
>Popularity doesn't write software.
No, its just the only thing that matters when it comes to get paid for it.
I don't understand how Groovy is fading away when it is getting more and more popular. Groovy is also very similar to Java. There is no learning curve, you are immediately creating value.
Fuchsia is language agnostic. This is a boon. Writing for Fuchsia isn’t like writing for Unix where C is king. Fuchsia is able to natively host many more ecosystems than Linux cares to bother with. It gives me great confidence.
Tons of great stuff for Unix is written in C++ and other languages all the way to Python and Java. You can write Unix apps in whatever language you want. Ditto for Windows and MacOS.
Not sure what the special deal is with Fuchsia here.
Perhaps you think you'll be able to write Fucshia device drivers with any language you like? That wont be the case at all.
Also Linux has this going in its favor over Fucshia: it actually exists.
That won't get kotlin more traction. No proper/official tools for LSP support means no vscode, vim, emacs etc. users. As a happy eclipse user, I wouldn't call it dead either.
>Not every Java shop is going to drop Eclipse and Netbeans just to make JetBrains happy.
True. They will drop them because Eclipse has been faltering for ages and has been dropped by IBM, and Netbeans has always been a subpar unloved stepchild used by the kind of devs that don't know better and think SlickEdit or Notepad++ are great editors.
>The overwhelming majority of Java developers don't even know who Steve Yegge is.
>I guess Fortune 500's have missed that memo, including IBM own subsidiaries.
They probably did. They're late for all memos. The Fortune 500 is not were you'll go to gauge adoption. Heck, half of them still have IE6 only apps.
There are hundreds of thousands of companies, and just 500, well, Fortune 500.
Apparently you use the most established and boring development-wise of companies (Fortune 500) to prove Kotlin is not used widely, but you're OK with vaporware like Fucscia that's not even beta yet as an argument that Dart and co are.
>I am betting Kotlin would become yet another language that happens to compile to the JVM
And I bet you're wrong. Let's see in 5 years. We were on HN 10 years ago, we'll probably be here then. I'll set a reminder.
Lets see where it stands 5 years from now, specially if Fuchsia actually gets released.