[johnisgood]

I was responding to the issue I quoted, which really is just a matter of using a programming language with static typing. :)

> some of which aren’t solved by other languages

You only mentioned null pointers, so I will go with that. In Ada, you can have access types (pointers) that are guaranteed to not be null, and accessibility rules of Ada prevent dangling references to declared objects or data that no longer exists, so this particular issue is solved by a language other than Rust. Please feel free to give me other examples of errors or issues that you may believe is not solved by languages other than Rust.

https://www.adaic.org/resources/add_content/standards/05rat/...

> But any tools which can eliminate whole error categories are worth looking at for sure!

I agree. That is why I think Ada/SPARK is awesome! :P

[Yoric]

I will give you a few examples. My knowledge of Ada is insufficient, so I'll let you tell me whether Ada can solve that without using an external prover (note: being able to use an external prover is great and I haven't seen this done in Rust yet :) – but that's not the topic at hand).

1/ Consider a file `f` (or a socket, etc.). Using the standard library, Rust will statically ensure that, once the file is closed, you cannot attempt to, say, read from it. This is nothing special to files, just an aspect of the borrow checker.

2/ Consider a communication protocol. You need to send a message `HLO`, expect a message `ACK`, then send something else, etc. It is pretty easy to design your objects such that the operations of sending the message, receiving the message, etc. will change the type of your protocol object, ensuring statically that you never send/expect a message that you're not supposed to send in the current state.

If you're curious, I wrote a blurb last year on the topic: https://yoric.github.io/post/rust-typestate/

3/ I quickly googled "Ada spark phantom types" and didn't find anything. Does Ada support phantom types?

[pjmlp]

SPARK is a subset of Ada 2012.

Your examples are possible with contracts.

[Yoric]

I'm interested, do you have examples somewhere on how to implement that kind of properties with contracts?

[yannickmoy]

You can look at this blog post where I used a ghost global variable to hold the current state of the game (see section "Proving Functional Properties of Tetris Code"): https://blog.adacore.com/tetris-in-spark-on-arm-cortex-m4

You can similarly express ghost properties of your types, even though we don't have ghost fields in SPARK. For more on ghost code in SPARK, you can look at this presentation last year from my colleague Claire Dross: https://www.adacore.com/uploads/products/SSAS-Presentations/...

As a more extensive example of a useful library with this kind of contracts for proof, Joffrey Huguet added rich contracts of this kind to the Ada.Text_IO standard library just two weeks ago, as part of his current internship with us. This should be in the FSF trunk in the coming weeks. For example, here are some contracts he added:

   procedure Open
     (File : in out File_Type;
      Mode : File_Mode;
      Name : String;
      Form : String := "")
   with
     Pre    => not Is_Open (File),
     Post   =>
      Is_Open (File)
      and then Ada.Text_IO.Mode (File) = Mode
      and then (if Mode /= In_File
                  then (Line_Length (File) = 0
                        and then Page_Length (File) = 0)),
     Global => (In_Out => File_System);

   procedure Put (File : File_Type; Item : Character) with
     Pre    => Is_Open (File) and then Mode (File) /= In_File,
     Post   =>
       Line_Length (File)'Old = Line_Length (File)
       and Page_Length (File)'Old = Page_Length (File),
     Global => (In_Out => File_System);

   procedure Close  (File : in out File_Type) with
     Pre    => Is_Open (File),
     Post   => not Is_Open (File),
     Global => (In_Out => File_System);

[galangalalgol]

Ada is awesome, and if compiler writers had been more timely it might have taken hold. Rust solves the same problems without a runtime, and about 3 times the performance. Granted it looks like c++ and ocaml made a particularly ugly child.

[henrikeh]

>> [...] solves the same problems without a runtime, and about 3 times the performance.

I think you should look more into Ada. The only "runtime" is for the exception handling and bounds checking, both of which can be turned off if needed.

And I don't know where you got that "3 times" figure from? Do you have an example you are referring to?

[galangalalgol]

I knew you could turn off the runtime but not about the formal verification lint tools that make it safe to do so. My reference for performance is the benchmark game. If you or someone else can mod those programs to beat rust I'd be thrilled. I like Ada.

[pjmlp]

Many planes, trains, rockets and medical devices run on Ada.

There is more to commercial compilers than winning the benchmarks game.

[igouy]

For sure.

The benchmarks game is just an easily available source of examples.

Which, for instance, may show an Ada program with much the same measured time as a Rust program —

https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

[Narishma]

Those things don't need to be particularly fast. What they need is consistent and predictable performance and resource usage.

[galangalalgol]

Planes trains and rockets have more sensors than ever and speed is very important.

[galangalalgol]

Most of my experience is embedded c++ but I have written ada rust and a fair bit of jovial73. Rust is a perfect fit for those same domains. Most o the things that ran Ada in the US have now switched to c++. Do178b certified safety critical c++ is a horrible thing to develop. I'm hoping rust comes in to fix that.

[pjmlp]

Sure, safe system programming languages should be seen as allies to the common goal of improving the quality of our IT stacks.

[johnisgood]

I believe the performance differences on The Computer Language Benchmarks Game is largely due to the implementations themselves. For one, pidigits have been translated from Pascal to Ada using p2ada. I do not think that this is a fair comparison at all.

[galangalalgol]

I agree on that one, I'm rusty at ada, bad pun, but someone should profile and fix it. The n body one is half the speed of rust and it is hand tweaked using simd instructions. I wouldn't mind at all goin back to Ada. Most of the people that switched to c++ did so in order to have a larger hiring pool or to seem more modern. Some of them are switching to safety critical Java now for the same reasons. I suspect safety critical python is on the horizon. If airliners have to start worrying about python 2/3 headaches I'll know it is time to retire.

[igouy]

Even being rusty at Ada, you may be able to fix this regex program:

https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

https://salsa.debian.org/benchmarksgame-team/benchmarksgame/...

[johnisgood]

Yeah, I wish we had Ada experts fixing and optimizing them. That would be neat! It matters a lot to people, and Rust versions have been optimized to oblivion by many people. It should be done with Ada, too, to have a fair comparison. :)

And yeah, it is a valid and very serious issue. If we had more Ada programmers, we would not have to sit in trains or airplanes "powered" by C++, haha.

[igouy]

The other Ada pidigits program currently fails because output checking was made more restrictive:

https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

It would be great if you would contribute a program that fixes this trivial problem:

https://salsa.debian.org/benchmarksgame-team/benchmarksgame/...

[johnisgood]

I tested the code. It compiles and runs just fine. I compared the checksum of the output from both Rust and this version, they are identical:

md5 5b185f9a67a426baf78aa3bbb5baf8df out_rust

md5 5b185f9a67a426baf78aa3bbb5baf8df out_ada

On top of that, I got this:

Rust:

real 0m0.702s

user 0m0.693s

sys 0m0.007s

Ada:

real 0m0.708s

user 0m0.706s

sys 0m0.000s

Why don't you use this version instead? The output is correct and identical to Rust's, and the performance is significantly better: just as fast as C and Rust, as expected.

Thanks for letting us know about its existence!

[johnisgood]

Which problems are you referring to?

You can do everything that has been mentioned without Ada's RTS, you can also disable all run-time checks. You can use static analysis tools (there are many, and available for free), for example, you can formally verify the correctness of the program, no run-time checks required.