[taway483]

I think you do a great disservice to the Chinese people by assuming that they don't care or that they support it. The fact is that they're helpless. They have nothing to gain by expressing their true beliefs and everything to lose. I have many Chinese friends and they all either post government propaganda (that they don't believe in or support) on weixin or stay quiet. Why? Because it will be seen by their families, friends, classmates, professors, coworkers, bosses, etc. When they go travel, want to get a loan, a promotion, etc. then it will play a major role.

[PakG1]

What can I say? My Chinese friends who like the job their government is doing outweigh my Chinese friends who don't. Want to compare numbers and demographics? I've accumulated a fair number of Chinese friends from all walks of life in multiple cities in multiple regions across the country, both very rich and very poor. When you speak of me doing a great disservice, it speaks of a moral superiority in your mind. I used to think like that. Now I feel like I understand Chinese society better. I don't agree with much of it, it still doesn't match my values. But I do understand it better than before, even if I disagree with it.

[logicchains]

I have a fair few Chinese friends and have found something similar. Sure, I know a few Chinese who are desparately trying to do whatever they can to emigrate from China, but I also know quite a few who studied/worked overseas and then returned to China because they prefer the conditions there. They recognise some problems with how things are in China, but view the problems overseas as greater.

America for instance is perceived to be a more dangerous place to live. By official numbers (which is what people see), you're much more likely to be raped or murdered in a big American city than in a Chinese one. The streets aren't covered with homeless people, used needles and human faeces in China. You don't get $x0,000 healthcare bills for simple procedures in China. Big Chinese cities don't have "no-go zones". Your kids won't be bullied for academic success, they'll be bullied for academic failure. Your kids are much less likely to be exposed to hard drugs and drug users in high school. Sure, this may not actually be due to the efforts of the authoritarian government, but that doesn't stop people crediting the government for it.

Europe is also seen as dangerous. There is no political correctness in China, and many middle class Chinese fall relatively far to the right of the political spectrum by western standards, viewing Europe as a failing state ravaged by Muslim immigrants and undermined by its coddling welfare policies. A Chinese friend, who grew up in a relatively poor part of China but is now stably middle-class, recently went on holiday to Italy, and one of the first things they said when they returned was that they were shocked by how poor everybody seemed there.

For ambitious Chinese, many feel they have a bigger chance of making it big in China. Count the number of ethnically Chinese tech company CEOs in Chinese companies vs US companies, for instance. The "bamboo ceiling" is not present in China, and due to the population the sheer number of job opportunities for professionals is bigger than most other countries can offer.

[PakG1]

>> For ambitious Chinese, many feel they have a bigger chance of making it big in China. Count the number of ethnically Chinese tech company CEOs in Chinese companies vs US companies, for instance.

You were expecting Chinese tech companies to mostly have non-Chinese CEOs? ;)

[taway483]

If you lived in North Korea, do you think your North Korean friends who like the job their government is doing would outweight those who don't?

Would you dare to criticize the government if you were in their position? This video does a great job at illustrating the situation your Chinese friends face: https://vimeo.com/44078865

[PakG1]

That's not a fair comparison because Chinese citizens are a lot more educated and aware than you make it sound. North Koreans are a lot more suppressed, and most of them have never been outside of their country. You also make it sound like I can't have real heart-to-heart debates with my Chinese friends due to their fear of being caught; I assure you these are their real opinions. What I've found is that the average educated Chinese person has more understanding of western governments than the average western person has understanding of the Chinese government. I don't know if that colours western opinions, but I do believe my lack of knowledge coloured mine some time ago.

A number of my Chinese friends are well-educated, and many of them received masters degrees from top universities in the US. Many of them make 6-figure salaries when converted to USD, working for the likes of IBM, Tesla, and Walmart, as well as your usual Chinese big companies and smaller startups. But I honestly do not see a lot of difference in the opinion proportions when I compare my rich, educated friends with my poor, non-educated friends.

Look, I'm a Christian, right? As a Christian, I'm very well aware of what my Chinese friends could face, especially my Christian Chinese friends, if they cross the government. I know what's happened in the past too. It's a complex situation where yes, some people are afraid. But in my experience, the afraid people are outnumbered by people who are satisfied and very optimistic. And many of my friends who are satisfied are not blindly satisfied. Again, they're educated, intelligent, and aware. They see that the future is complex and have chosen to agree that the government's current policies are mostly the best way forward. They can match me hit for hit in any debate.

Again, when I did a deep dive into Chinese history, I started to see very deep currents that influenced why China's domestic policies, economic policies, and foreign policies are what they are today, and why they make sense in this context. Would I ever want to become a Chinese citizen? No, I can't agree with a lot of this stuff. I just understand it better than I used to.

A friend of mine who got his masters in environmental science at Texas A&M said to me, "The west thought that we needed democracy and freedoms to be happy. Honestly, we just wanted a better standard of living, we don't need that other stuff." The actual comprehensive sentiments of my friends are of course a bit more complex, but one of the commenters here who speaks as an African empathizes quite well with this general sentiment.

If the economy every collapsed into oblivion, I guess we might see another revolution. China has had a lot of them in the last 100 years. But these guys mostly have confidence in their government. They feel things are getting better, not worse, and they feel this will continue. That's just a survey of my friends from all walks of Chinese life.

I don't think anything is gained going back and forth here. You have your set of friends who tell you one thing, and I have my set of friends who tell me something else. I think it's easier for me to believe my set of friends, as I think they're quite a diverse group across multiple demographic dimensions. If your friends are likewise so diverse, I don't know, what should I say? For whatever reason, the two of us are being told different things by people we trust.

[dave_sullivan]

> I don't think anything is gained going back and forth here. You have your set of friends who tell you one thing, and I have my set of friends who tell me something else.

That is kind of the stalemate isn't it? But I'm just wondering, what are you actually advocating here?

I don't think you're advocating for authoritarian rule generally as you mention you wouldn't want to become a Chinese citizen yourself.

I think you're advocating for people to learn Chinese history and that the CCP's decisions would make sense in that context.

I do know a bit about Chinese history and their government's decisions do make sense in historical context (as did Stalin's decisions), but they are still bad decisions made by practically evil people.

They are an authoritarian government. The people are happy living under authoritarian rule? Fine, Stockholm syndrome is a thing. That still doesn't make authoritarian rule OK in my opinion. Some may differ on that, but I actually would go so far as to say "authoritarian governments are bad" full stop. And yes it's a sliding scale in that the US is authoritarian in many ways, I'm not ok with that either. I think China's people are in an abusive relationship with their government; many of them are so abused that they've come to love their abuser, or think they do. A whole society trading their freedom for gold and rationalizing it any way they can. But do we actually disagree?

[PakG1]

I'm not sure we actually disagree on many points. We do disagree on some points. For example, what you view as an abusive relationship, I think is more simply a completely different worldview as to what are considered acceptable norms in society. But it's easy for you to look at the relationship and think it's abusive because of your foundational worldview about what is normal and what is OK, especially considering the likely difference between power distance index values between yourself and Chinese culture.

edit: This reminds me of a business case about cross-cultural work I had to learn for my MBA. It is amazing how much a real-life company failed in China only simply because lack of cultural understanding led to immense distrust between the two parties, even though both parties really actually wanted to work with each other. But their cultural ignorance could only lead them to both believe that they couldn't trust each other, as they were completely misunderstanding each other's messages and signals. I can see that happening in general when analyzing another person's society. The point of the case was that cultural misunderstanding tends to lead to negative assumptions, rather than benefit of the doubt. :endedit

I am definitely mostly saying that I've learned that the world has a lot more nuance than I realized when I was younger, and that we'd all do well if we realized that. It allows for better dialogue among people, especially with those who are different from us. For example, I imagine if Americans can figure that out, the American government and society will be much stronger; instead, there just seems to be an insane amount of partisanship that makes things worse, and no way to cross the aisle and bridge the gap.

I will say that despite all the issues I have with the Chinese government, I will not say that "authoritarian governments are bad" full stop. I used to think like that. I don't anymore after realizing how the world is not so black and white. If we demonize a third party, it is easier to not understand the third party. The people responsible for deradicalizing ISIS converts that ran away from Europe are able to understand deeper root causes. They don't just hate people for joining ISIS, nor do they just simply hate ISIS. They are able to understand the other side, and it is because of their expansive knowledge and empathy that they are able to communicate with such people.

As Ender Wiggin once said: "In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."

Martin Jacques is an excellent scholar who I think understands China really, really well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imhUmLtlZpw

[dave_sullivan]

> I will not say that "authoritarian governments are bad" full stop. I used to think like that. I don't anymore after realizing how the world is not so black and white. If we demonize a third party, it is easier to not understand the third party.

I just don't buy this moral relativism.

In some societies, it's ok to beat your wife. But I think to normalize this behavior as a simple difference in cultural practices would be doing a disservice to the global political discourse and the larger concept of human rights.

Concepts like "due process" and "freedom of speech" are maybe less clear cut than "Is it ok to beat your wife?" But are they really? I think every society ought to have those things. They are major political innovations to come about over the last few hundred years. To do otherwise would be a regression. Yes that's a judgment. So is "beating your wife isn't ok". Understanding why someone beats their wife doesn't make it better either. It's just something that you shouldn't do.

As far as governments, disappearing people for saying mean things about the president is something that they shouldn't do. There's nothing to understand, they just shouldn't do it. I don't think this should be a controversial opinion. It's possible to understand different cultures while still standing up for what I would consider to be basic human rights and due process. I'm lucky I can do that from here, because to do so in China would be a jailable offense.

[PakG1]

>> I do know a bit about Chinese history and their government's decisions do make sense in historical context (as did Stalin's decisions), but they are still bad decisions made by practically evil people.

When I talk about how Chinese history affected my understanding of current Chinese government policies, I am talking about 5000 years of Chinese history, not the small blip that is post-Mao.

[PavlovsCat]

> What can I say?

You could try to be a voice for the voiceless, rather than another chair on their neck.

> My Chinese friends who like the job their government is doing outweigh my Chinese friends who don't.

They don't, not to me, and not ever. Not even a million such people can "outweigh" one dissident who gets tortured.

> When you speak of me doing a great disservice, it speaks of a moral superiority in your mind.

And when you have a problem with that, you assume some kind of moral weight on your behalf, just because you'd like to have it, yet you offer nothing but "more people are fine with it than resist it", after decades of murder, no less.

[PakG1]

Firstly, you don't know my life or what I do in China. Don't make assumptions about me. I volunteer for people who need it more than you can imagine, and will be doing so again this summer. That's your bad.

Secondly, outweigh here simply means outnumber. If that was unclear, I'm sorry. But I will say that Chinese people with whom I speak are sick of hearing westerners claim the moral high ground when they see what western countries do around the world to both other countries and their own citizens, and I have to admit they have a point. Pot, meet kettle.

Thirdly, there is a difference between (1) claiming to have or accusing others of having moral high ground and (2) simply acknowledging that different well-thought-out opinions exist.

Look, I'm done with this topic on this thread, OK? If you seriously want to discuss it in detail, you're welcome to DM me on Twitter, my username is my username. I'm always up for a lengthy discussion about anything, though I shall go to sleep now, given the time zone here. :)

[PavlovsCat]

> Secondly, outweigh here simply means outnumber.

Yes I know, but that's still meaningless. Many people having an opinion is the same as one person having it.

> Chinese people with whom I speak are sick of hearing

Let them argue, or be sick of it. There's people sick of being tortured, there's murdered people literally without number because they weren't counted, who are utterly expelled from humanity and just shrugged off, while their murderers have banquets, there's mountains of work about totalitarianism, these things don't budge one inch in my mind even if all 7+ billion people on the planet were "sick of hearing about it". That just demonstrates how little they know, that they think that even begins to matter.

> when they see what western countries do around the world to both other countries and their own citizens

Yes, that means I don't say yes to more of it. More here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19187297 and here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19227920

> Pot, meet kettle.

So I can't make "assumptions" about you, but you can simply equate me with "Westerners" first, and then those in turn with the worst Westerners do or tacitly approve of? Come on. I'm the kind of guy who without any irony demands an arrest warrant for Blair and Bush, to start with. What I say doesn't make it happen, but that doesn't mean this Westerner isn't on the barricades about all sorts of stuff, for nearly 2 decades now. You don't even have the faintest idea how readily I criticize "my own", and how much of my life I dedicate to it.

So now I should make an exception for Chinese totalitarianism? No. I actually know an elderly person who was robbed by a gang of people who were traced back to China by the police, I'm already being attacked by what you think should be left to fester.

> If the totalitarian conqueror conducts himself everywhere as though he were at home, by the same token he must treat his own population as though he were a foreign conqueror.

-- Hannah Arendt

This is the reason why European and American colonialism HAS to lead to internal repression. It's also the reason why the totalitarianism in China HAS to spill out. The whole world is at at stake, and has been at stake for a long time now, people get born into that process without being aware of it, and consider free fall a nice sensation. They actually think Our Big Brother protects them from the differently colored Their Big Brother (and then we have little sub-poles within those to identify with and kill all our thought and agency with), instead of them being the walls between which all of life will get crushed, utterly and irrevocably, if we don't stop playing games. That's what I see, though it would take more time and space than we have here to unpack. China, with all its history, and all its people in it, currently or ever, is but a speck in light of all that. So is the US, Europe, anything or anyone you could mention. That's "where I'm coming from".

> simply acknowledging that different well-thought-out opinions exist

Then show the thought! That a lot of people share it or are "sick" of this or that, isn't anything. And it stands against a giant corpus.

> Look, I'm done with this topic on this thread, OK?

I understand, this can be exhausting and I kinda barged in with a chip on my shoulder late to the party. But I'm done with Twitter before I ever started with it :P So take care, don't take it personally.

My stance can be summed up as, I want to be able to look at least Sophie Scholl into the eye without blinking or blushing -- anything and anyone else, no matter how numerous, is secondary, those are mere contemporaries. We'll all be gone in 100 years, and while I don't claim any objective claim to anything, my outlook is a lot longer than 100 years, and lot wider than the super thin slice of people who happen to be currently living. And while we can't really fathom what future fates could hinge on our decisions, and it may be moot to even enter that into consideration, that still at least hangs there in the background of my mind, like some vague amorphous cloud.

[johnisgood]

> Because it will be seen by their families, friends, classmates, professors, coworkers, bosses, etc. When they go travel, want to get a loan, a promotion, etc. then it will play a major role.

That is very sad. :/

[yorwba]

> it will be seen by their families, friends, classmates, professors, coworkers, bosses, etc.

That's what visibility controls are for. You don't have to let everyone see what you post, and I have many friends who use that to post things critical of the Chinese government, mostly on topics like censorship or the relationship to Taiwan, especially when the referendum on gay marriage was in the news.

[luckylion]

They trust post visibility controls to hide their posts from the government? Hell, I wouldn't even trust those to hide them from anyone, really. Too man bugs in software, too many bugs in UX, too many terrible business decisions ("we'll just remove these to expand user generated content and drive up enagegement levels"). When you give me "controls" I don't control, I treat them as if they are always set to the worst case possible.

[yorwba]

The government knows anyway. Half of the posts about censorship I see are just screenshots of two sides of a conversation, showing which messages didn't make it to the other end. The visibility controls are there to hide that stuff from people who're not part of the government.