[dave_sullivan]

> I will not say that "authoritarian governments are bad" full stop. I used to think like that. I don't anymore after realizing how the world is not so black and white. If we demonize a third party, it is easier to not understand the third party.

I just don't buy this moral relativism.

In some societies, it's ok to beat your wife. But I think to normalize this behavior as a simple difference in cultural practices would be doing a disservice to the global political discourse and the larger concept of human rights.

Concepts like "due process" and "freedom of speech" are maybe less clear cut than "Is it ok to beat your wife?" But are they really? I think every society ought to have those things. They are major political innovations to come about over the last few hundred years. To do otherwise would be a regression. Yes that's a judgment. So is "beating your wife isn't ok". Understanding why someone beats their wife doesn't make it better either. It's just something that you shouldn't do.

As far as governments, disappearing people for saying mean things about the president is something that they shouldn't do. There's nothing to understand, they just shouldn't do it. I don't think this should be a controversial opinion. It's possible to understand different cultures while still standing up for what I would consider to be basic human rights and due process. I'm lucky I can do that from here, because to do so in China would be a jailable offense.

[PakG1]

I don't disagree with your logic. But I have come to believe no government is innocent either, though some countries are more guilty than others. I am not defending the Chinese government. I am saying it doesn't help to paint them as 100% evil because of some practices with which I really disagree and label to be terrible, because then I'd have to paint most countries as 100% evil. Even if it's true, it's not productive and only escalates the tension, which is a shame because there are good things we can also teach each other. But I'm also not saying pull a Neville Chamberlain and give up what I think is right for "peace in our time". It's complicated and thank goodness you and I are not the diplomats that need to take care of foreign relations with China on behalf of our western countries (I presume you're from a western country).

Change it from beat your wife to spank your children in clear cases of wanton disobedience to make my logic easier to digest. I wouldn't spank my future kids. My wife definitely won't, and she has an even stronger opinion than I do on it. But my parents spanked me when I misbehaved. Did that make them bad parents? Should I paint them evil? If I want them to change for when they babysit my future kids, does it help to paint them evil? It certainly won't open any dialogs. It would close the dialog. And understanding why they spanked me from a cultural and historical perspective allows me to better have that dialog with them.

Look, my original point was simply this: I reported that many of my Chinese friends did not feel horrified or afraid of their government. Though they know there are issues, they are for the most part satisfied. We've really gone on a tangent to talk about some of my own opinions, but I do think it's always good to have dialog with others anyway.