[throwaway12iii]

The biggest selling electric car is from Japan. The Nissan leaf.

Yes, you used the weasel word "reputable" - but what better reputation is there than having the most sales? Nissan from Japan sells the most electric cars.

Apart from sales, the Nissan Leaf scores 7-8/10 and 4/5 from the critics. Which is around the same as the Tesla model 3.

If the critics think they are ok, and they sell the most of all electric cars... then they can be considered reputable.

[technofiend]

He also mentioned a 200 mile range, which the Leaf is still working towards; Nissan's website clearly states the latest Leaf has a 150 mile range [1]. I've been lusting after all electric cars for a while including the Leaf but range is definitely a concern.

Kudos to Tesla for breaking open the market and creating all electric cars with 200+ mile range. But I'm with the original poster in that I want 200+ miles and a quality product with no fit and finish issues or supply-chain problems when there's a breakdown. Tesla has one of three right now and eventually the majors will catch up.

[1] https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/leaf/range-...

[andrewmunsell]

For anyone interetsed, the Leaf E-Plus is coming within the next couple months with a 200 mile range: https://insideevs.com/leaf-e-plus-nissan-joins-200-mile-club...

There's still no active battery cooling though, which is a disappointment.

[technofiend]

Particularly in hot climates there's concern both around battery performance and actual range. Practically speaking you need to factor in climate control use when driving, which lowers range.

[athenot]

The Leaf Plus goes on sale in the US in spring, with a range of 224 miles.

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/2019-nissan-leaf-plus-ev-...

[loeg]

Yeah, my ICE wagon has 450-550 miles rated range depending on city/highway rated mileage. Even if you assume that's somewhat optimistic (and it isn't that optimistic — my 15 year older, same model wagon got nearly the same mileage), it's still a lot more than 150. And it cost a lot less than $30k.

[Scoundreller]

I’d kinda prefer the low range:

It would encourage me to rent a car for road trips and put the damage on someone else’s vehicle.

Most of my road trips are the 1000km in 2-3 day variety anyway.

[loeg]

If I was going to rent for any drive longer than 150 miles, I wouldn't own a car in the first place. Renting is a big hassle and multiplied by N trips sounds unpleasant. My trips are shorter and probably more frequent than your 620 mile multi-day affairs, though.

[Scoundreller]

I guess my questions are:

What percentage of cars go on more than 2x 150 mile+ trips in a year? (Or 300 mile round trips that can be charged at turnaround point).

And the same question for 100/200 miles. I’m guessing 90%+ for personal cars.

And many of the exceptions are multicar households that could shift their long-drives to the other car.

[loeg]

To answer your question, I could only guess :-).

I don't know how common it is, but we're a single-car household that goes hiking (i.e., no charging at the turn around point).

[CompelTechnic]

GP probably was referring to legendary Toyota quality, as opposed to (good but not known in popular culture as remarkable) Nissan quality.

[throw0u1t]

Toyota have traditionally built their reputation of quality by conservativly adopting new technology, especially when it comes to drivetrains.

I'm not aware of any Toyota vehicles sold in the U.K that have a turbocharger, except the Supra which shares the drivetrain, suspension, platform and some interior with the BMW Z4.

Heck, their Yaris GRMN uses the 1.8 supercharged engine that Toyota have been selling to Lotus for years.

I wonder how Toyota plan to transfer this to electric vehicles given how new the technology still is.

[ed_balls]

Prius drivetrain is quite complicated.

> that have a turbocharger,

It's not only Toyota. I think this is an instance of you get what you measure. European car automakers jump into turbocharged engines, because it was easy to meet NDEC. Now WLTP makes it a way harder, hence mild hybridization.

[sremani]

I am bit thinking out loud, drive train becomes important if its a plug-in hybrid when you have to change from electric to gas (and vice-versa), but in electric it is meant to be simple, is drive train even an issue of innovation in Electric cars, after all there is only Drive and Reverse.

[throw0u1t]

I would presume electric drive trains are quite complex.

You'd have independent electric motors on at least 2, perhaps all 4 wheels. You have to redesign entire platforms to fit batteries, ensure the batteries and the drivetrain have adequate cooling, ensure that the electric motors have a certain amount of longevity, and so on.

[andrewmunsell]

With the exception of a few niche vehicles, most EVs have only 1 (FWD/RWD) or 2 (AWD) motors. Though it's a new platform, electric motors aren't exactly a new technology and overall it's significantly fewer moving parts to fail. There's also the fact that many manufacturers come up with a single "skateboard" platform for multiple vehicles, which reduces the overall complexity of manufacturing EVs.

[throw0u1t]

As far as I understand the current state of EVs, EVs have eliminated the engine and it's ancillaries.

However, EVs still have CV joints, differentials (dependent on the car, Tesla runs an open differential), independent suspension - all of which must be much stronger since electric motors produce far more torque than ICEs and also have the added weight penalty.

[cptskippy]

> I would presume electric drive trains are quite complex.

They're significantly less complicated than an ICE power-train and drive-train.

The Nissan Leaf has a single electric motor and a fixed reduction gear box. The only fluids to maintain are the wiper fluid and reduction gear box fluid, which is similar to automatic transmission fluid but requires less maintenance. The battery pack is air cooled and the only servicing is an annual inspection to maintain warranty.

The Tesla vehicles are all direct drive with no gearbox. They come in single or dual motor options. The batteries are cooled and the fluid is changed at 4 year intervals.

The maintenance schedule for an EV is annually changing the cabin filter, wiper blades, and doing a multi-point inspection.

[magduf]

>The Tesla vehicles are all direct drive with no gearbox.

This is wrong. They have a single electric motor (except the dual-motor ones) and a fixed reduction gear box, just like the Leaf. No one does direct-drive electric motors because it's a lot easier to make a faster-spinning motor and then use a reduction gear to get usable torque from it; a direct-drive motor would have to have a huge diameter.

>The maintenance schedule for an EV is annually changing the cabin filter, wiper blades, and doing a multi-point inspection.

You're forgetting the brakes. EVs still have regular hydraulic brake systems that need new pads and fluid, though not as much because they can use regenerative braking much of the time, avoiding use of the friction brakes, which are really for emergency stops and full stops.

[loeg]

Electric drivetrains are just so simple compared to ICE that it seems hard to fuck up. I mean, I'm sure Toyota will think about it more than I have, but that's one of the major benefits of this shift towards battery vehicles.

[magduf]

>Electric drivetrains are just so simple compared to ICE that it seems hard to fuck up.

You would think so, but Tesla had a lot of problems with their electric motors and had to replace lots of them.

[loeg]

Tesla is in an interesting position where they have a lot of apologists for various kinds of problems that no other automaker gets. I don't think their experience is necessarily indicative of how an entranched, reliable automaker's EV experience will shake out.

[magduf]

Perhaps, but it's not like there's a lot of other examples of battery EVs out there to compare with, just the Leaf and the Bolt really. There's also the motors in the Volt and Prius (which are both capable of running motor-only, and for the Volt the motor provides all the propulsion). But you have a point, none of those others have had any motor problems I've heard of. Thought to be fair, the Tesla motors are a lot more powerful than those in any of those other cars.

[cptskippy]

EVs are dramatically simplified in comparison to ICE vehicles and thus the power-train is much more reliable. For any automaker this increased reliability is only going to help their reputation.

This poses a problem for Toyota and others (e.g. Honda) who are known for having very reliable power-trains, not because their reliability will suffer but rather because other automaker's power-trains will get significantly better. That is assuming those other automakers don't find a way to screw up, I have no doubt some will.

[throw0u1t]

I'm concerned like this a quite a blanket statement. Are all EVs that much simpler? There are simple EV drivetrains and there are complex EV drivetrains. Not all EV drivetrains are the same.

This also applies to ICE. Most ICE drivetrains that do not have forced induction tend to be quite simple. Forced induction makes the drivetrain much more complex and puts a lot more strain on the drivetrain, and is one of the reasons why Toyota has stayed away from forced induction.

Is the drive train in a Tesla Model X P100d much simpler than that in a 1.5 NA Yaris? I'm not sure, and would love to be proved incorrect on this.

[cptskippy]

> Are all EVs that much simpler?

Yes.

Internal Combustion Engines have at a minimum a Combustion System, Ignition System, Fuel Delivery System, Exhaust System, and a Cooling System. These can vary in complexity but, apart from air cooling, any one of those systems will be more complex than an EV's electric power-train. On top of that, most of the parts of an ICE are mechanical moving parts where as most of the parts of an electric motor are stationary non-moving parts.

ICE vehicles almost universally have a transmission gear box that contains a configurable gear system to alter the gear ratio of the vehicle. All EVs on the market use a fixed gear box with a single reduction gear set.

> Is the drive train in a Tesla Model X P100d much simpler than that in a 1.5 NA Yaris?

Yes, dramatically.

[loeg]

Where are the complex EV drivetrains? It isn't remotely the same thing as ICE. Even the most reliable ICE drivetrains are extremely complex. Toyota just uses conservative and overbuilt ICE technology to achieve remarkable reliability. That's fine, but still has tons of moving parts compared to electric drivetrains.

[mikepurvis]

Kudos as well to Nissan for giving the Leaf a more conventional body in the 2017 model year. I think the weirdo bug eyes and strange rear end were a barrier to some people— the current look blends in much better.

[athenot]

I had the 2013 and the 2015 models. The edgy design was on purpose, as the car appealled to a segment which is ready to try out something new and live with the rough edges. Branding actually reflects that even though it's subconscient to the user.

Their move to a conventional body is in line with the signal that this is no longer just for the early adopter market but now for the mainstream.

[syntaxing]

I wanted to buy one in 2017 for the 2016 model when they had this sale for a brand new Leaf for 18K take home (12K with incentives). But the 107 miles range was pretty disappointing hence why I didn't buy it. I'm sure it's a great car but range and battery life on them so far leaves a lot to be desired. I still rather own a Toyota over a Nissan though due to longevity of the cars And yes, I owned all the three major Japanese brands before and drives (probably my last) Honda right now.

[_ea1k]

AFAIK, the first Leaf with >200 mile range is the Leaf Plus. It isn't shipping yet, at least in the US. I suspect this is what he meant, rather than pointing to Nissan as being not reputable.

Although, the early Leaf vehicles had issues with battery degradation that could have been a factor as well.