[thrwy_01]

We hear a lot about Chinese cheating, from sat scores to ip theft. I've long wondered - why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; places with large ethnic Chinese populations which should be very similar culturally to mainland China. It seems implausible that the value systems in these places would have so widely diverged in a relatively short amount of time. Or perhaps it is the legal and regulatory environment (or lack thereof) that brings out the worst in people when they know they can get away with it?

[coldtea]

>We hear a lot about Chinese cheating, from sat scores to ip theft. I've long wondered - why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore; places with large ethnic Chinese populations which should be very similar culturally to mainland China

You use to hear it all the time about people in Taiwan and Hong Kong, and Singapore too. Back in the day (for Singapore that's as close as the 70s), they were seedy ports, with anything goes rules, prostitution, gambling, counterfeiting, drugs, and so on. Look for old books on those places.

Those things gradually changed as those 3 places became richer and more important for trade (and Taiwan was an early "China", getting outsourced industrial production from the West).

Note that all three places are much smaller than China, don't have 600+ strong rural population still struggling to get by/to middle class by any means, and some of them had a "Delaware/Switzerland" role in the region, with multiple interests vested in that working well (which is how the law sausage gets made to benefit corporations, the rule of law is held, and the countries get "high marks" for "economic freedom": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_economic_... ).

[est]

> why is cheating endemic in China whereas you don't hear the same complaints about people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore;

Because cheating is a cultural rather than ethnical thing.

There are ethnical Chinese people in those regions you listed, but sure mainland China sailed a totally different cultural course over the last 70 years.

In mainland china, cheating mostly happen because of over competition. If you don't cheat, others will and will crush you in business or academic competition. Cheaters go home for chicken dinner while non-cheaters goes to jail.

[thrwy_01]

Isnt there a similar level of competition in all of those places?

Also I've met a lot of mainland Chinese people who recently immigrated to the us and can say that they don't seem like unscrupulous people at a significantly greater rate than the general population.

[ido]

The penalties for "losing" are much lower in rich countries.

My grandfather used to say that he left the Soviet Union because he didn't want to live in a country where you have to cheat in order to have a good life.

[wahern]

> “And I say without the slightest remorse, that we wouldn't be here, we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters — who your neighbor is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit ... or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think.” Lee Kuan Yew, April 20, 1987.

Taiwan was "civilized" by 50 years of Japanese occupation that wasn't brutal or repressive as Korea. Though I think Taiwan was more of a backwater island nation when the Japanese came. Likewise for Hong Kong with Britain. Taiwan and Hong Kong sort of organically grew into and internalized the modern legal and business structures laid down by the occupiers. China is having to do what Lee Kuan Yew did, which was transform an unruly, anarchic, but otherwise sophisticated culture into one that obeys and values modern legal, rules-based norms.

[selestify]

How did China get its empires on and off for thousands of years of ancient history if its people are unruly and anarchic?

[wahern]

The same way the German "barbarians" did? Unruly doesn't imply backward; anarchic doesn't imply chaotic.

Also, China is a huge country with many cultures. Closer to Beijing the culture was historically more legalist and authoritarian. The southern coastal trading cultures were more anarchic. And I think that's still very much the same today, except because of industrialization and nationalization there's conflict where historically there was a natural symbiosis and passivity regarding the respective roles.

[yesenadam]

(Firstly, I don't accept your assumption that cheating is endemic in China, i.e. and not elsewhere. But I'm no expert at all.)

Maybe the question should be, why do you hear a lot more about it. Because China is 100 times the population of those other places? And, well, there seems a trend at least on HN lately, in stories from US papers/journals, and in the US media generally I assume (don't know, I'm not there) to favour 'China bad' stories, over 'China good' or '(Other country) bad'. It's pretty tedious, and seems to have started not long ago. It has that nauseating feeling of that regular US media obsession on the next country they'll invade/bomb. Demonization, subhumanization, whatever you want to call it.

[hyperion2010]

Overly simplistic, but the cultural revolution destroyed an entire set of social norms and many of the people in power in various regions were adolescents who were at the height of their rejection of such norms due to normal human development. Unfortunately that rejection of society that seems so crucial as a teen doesn't actually play out very well in the long run.

[threeseed]

> which should be very similar culturally to mainland China

Why though ?

Apart from looking similar they are quite different culturally from mainland China. A lot of which stems from the fact that they were former British colonies and have always taken inspiration from the West.

[vbtemp]

Massive famines, "cultural revolution", decades of civil war, genocides.. in general the demented social programs of Mao and his henchment. This was China from the 1910s to 1970s. Not to mention a century of colonization and forced concession. Chinese culture overseas was not ruptured in such a way, and preserves a lot of aspects of it from before that bloody century.

[agent008t]

It sounds very similar to Russia. I suspect it has something to do with their communist past.

[pcr0]

Rule of law vs rule by law

[entity345]

First, this is a sweeping, borderline racist, statement to state that "Chinese cheat". China is no more into IP theft or cheating than others. I think people should really be careful and refrain from "drinking the kool-aid" handed to them by some media.

Now, Taiwan and Hongkong are China. But China that continued on more traditional values. The communist regime has worked hard to change the fabric of society (like it did in e.g. Russia) and that has had negative consequences on culture and manners, and brought distrust in most institutions.

It is also down to the legal and regulatory environment. Just look for stories from Europe and the Us in the 19th century and you'll find many, many stories like you could hear from China today. And those stories from China today are what happens in many countries around the world outside of the Western 'bubble'.

[est]

You don't seem to understand, social credit is the direct outcome of "legal and regulatory environment".

[entity345]

What has that to do with the question or my reply?