[ChrisLomont]

> we have zero leverage or bargaining power against these large employers.

You have the leverage not to work there. They have the leverage not to hire you. If enough people choose to work there despite things they don’t like, your leverage is not lost because of the company being large, it’s lost because people choose to work there despite things you don’t like.

Companies compete for employees.

[_m96l]

Have you read the article?

In many areas where non-competes are legal, all employers slap them on their contracts.

So your choice is to sign one, or remain unemployed.

Also, most employees aren't fully aware of what these non-competes mean anyway.

[ChrisLomont]

>Have you read the article?

Yes.

> In many areas where non-competes are legal, all employers slap them on their contracts.

As others have pointed out, it's not uncommon to get them (and other clauses) struck out of employment agreements during hiring. I've struck that one from all places I've worked, I've struck all patent and IP claims out that were broad enough to cover things I do outside of work, I've gotten copyrights assigned to me instead of the employer, and so on, even very early in my career.

>So your choice is to sign one, or remain unemployed.

If it's that onerous, sign one to get a job, and while getting paid, immediately look for a new job that doesn't violate it without one. Not a single state has one so broad as to prevent you from any reasonable work. Problem solved.

Employment is always a negotiation. If you enter thinking you have zero leverage and are unable or unwilling to find other work, then you do have zero leverage.

[_m96l]

> As others have pointed out, it's not uncommon to get them (and other clauses) struck out of employment agreements during hiring. I've struck that one from all places I've worked, I've struck all patent and IP claims out that were broad enough to cover things I do outside of work, I've gotten copyrights assigned to me instead of the employer, and so on, even very early in my career.

I'll be polite and not accuse you of fabricating. Your experience is extremely, curiously atypical. I know from experience that these clauses are mandatory for several large employers. They are not waived for anyone. If you google, you'll find examples of senior vice presidents being sued for them.

The only way you can have them waived is if you negotiate with small employers who are starved for talent, and even then it won't be easy to do as a junior.

In fact I'm skeptical you even knew what a non-compete was as a recent grad.

> If it's that onerous, sign one to get a job, and while getting paid, immediately look for a new job that doesn't violate it without one.

So your solution is to act unethically, accept a permanent position just to get a paycheck while looking for a new job?

My impression of this comment is sinking by the sentence.

Reality check: if everyone in your area requires a non-compete, and you couldn't get a NC-free offer months, why would you get one now, when you're looking to leave a job you literally just accepted?

To potential employers, you now look worse than before.

> Employment is always a negotiation. If you enter thinking you have zero leverage and are unable or unwilling to find other work, then you do have zero leverage.

Translation:

"I like to make boastful absolutist claims because I have very little actual experience in the job market."

[cannonedhamster]

I hate non-competes, non-disparagement,and IP assignment clauses. I've had two (smaller) companies that had them in their offer letter and in both cases I've had the non-competes and non-disparagements removed. I'm not sure I'd have as much luck with a larger company, however it definitely does happen on occasion.

First time was as a new grad. The non-compete literally prevented me from working within 200 miles of my home in the same industry. I noped out. Even when they removed it I wasn't interested because that's shady.

Second time was at a different company. I just let them know I wasn't comfortable giving up my 1st amendment rights just to work somewhere and they considered it and let me take it out. My HR person was awesome and the company treated it's employees well.

Not disputing your other points, just want people to know they should at the very least make sure to ask. It may end up with a no, but it could end up turning out alright.

[ChrisLomont]

>I'll be polite and not accuse you of fabricating.

Then why mention it? So you can say you mentioned it? You can look up my name - I've written a decent amount of material for pay, some of which is also on my website, precisely because I requested the copyrights. You can look over my employment and side project history to see I have gotten the ability to both work on commercial stuff at work and off work.

Instead of implying someone is lying with passive aggressive nonsense, simply do some legwork.

>In fact I'm skeptical you even knew what a non-compete was as a recent grad.

You seem to make a lot of claims about me. Maybe your experience is not what everyone has seen? I learned well before leaving undergrad that you can edit legal documents before signing them, and if they countersign, then they agreed to your document. If they don't like it, then you negotiate.

This I thought was common knowledge.

>Your experience is extremely, curiously atypical.

There's a lot of similar claims on this page.

>for several large employers

I've stayed away from them for the most part, since they're more inflexible, and for good reason: dealing with lots of employees is much easier with uniform rules.

>So your solution is to act unethically This was opposed to simply breaking contracts or go unemployed. And a job is a business agreement - you work there as long as it suits you, they employ you as long as it suits them. If they're doing something you find so onerous, it's not unreasonable to find a new job.

>"I like to make boastful absolutist claims because I have very little actual experience in the job market."

You may want to look up my name. It's astounding you make so many claims about me without knowing me. What this shows, more than anything, is that you believe your own views, correct or not, over simply looking to check if something is true.

[dunpeal]

I apologize if I came across as overly harsh. I did look up your resume, and it does confirm my assertions. In fact, you are not directly contradicting any of them.

I made three assertions:

1. You will not be able to negotiate away non-compete clauses with large, powerful employers.

2. You may be able to negotiate them as a senior candidate for smaller companies.

3. Junior candidates will find it hard to negotiate their offers, including waiver of non-competes.

You agreed with my 1st assertion.

Your resume shows you to be a perfect example of the 2nd assertion. You are a senior engineer, an expert in his field, who worked in very senior technical roles in a series of small and very small companies. As such, you were in the best possible position to negotiate.

You seemed to dispute my 3rd assertion with your claim that you were able to negotiate non-competes away "early in your career", but your resume shows you took a Lead Programmer position in your very first year of full-time work. So you were never really a junior - you were a senior engineer working for small operations since the earliest stage of your career.

This is great for you, congratulations. It doesn't change the fact that your situation is unique, and doesn't generally apply. Not to most engineers, and certainly not to fast-food and similar unskilled workers mentioned in the article. These are people who don't have much money, really need the job, and often have limited choices in their area. They don't have the money to relocate, nor do they have leverage to negotiate.

So while I applaud you for being in the favorable position to negotiate away clauses since your first year of employment, I still caution against concluding that this is how it works for everyone else as well.

[ChrisLomont]

>Your experience is extremely, curiously atypical.

The majority of programmers don't work for large companies. Many of the biggest employers employ in California, further skewing the data towards programmers not having to worry. About half of all states don't even have non-compete laws for programmers.

As such, I suspect your losing jobs by refusing to sign them is the atypical experience, not mine.

>Your resume shows you to be a perfect example of the 2nd assertion. You are a senior engineer....

I was once junior, with the same results...

>but your resume shows you took a Lead Programmer position in your very first year of full-time work.

Yep, negotiation, not experience, which is exactly my point. And I didn't take any job thrown at me, I worked carefully to move to a situation I wanted to be in. One can move themselves up career ranks much faster by learning how to sell themselves and to take risks, than by trying to follow the company playbook.

If you do what most people do, you will get the outcome most people get. To do differently, make consistent, concentrated effort to do things differently in the proper manner and time.

I've found more developers over my career are not advancing to where they want or getting what they want through lack of learning how to deal with negotiation. They too often think the rules are fixed and rewards a solely a function of their technical skill, both of which are false.

I've taught many interns at companies I've been at how to negotiate better, and many of them were able to get significant contract changes made on their very first job.

I've also have many developers ask how to move up/over, and when I recommend they take on new or harder projects as they're presented, those programmers shy away from the unknown to do what they know. Those types, fear of risk, don't move as fast or as far. I don't begrudge them, they prefer safety, but when they complain later in their career that they didn't go as far as someone that did do scary, out of comfort things, it's mostly their own choices.

>I still caution against concluding that this is how it works for everyone else as well.

I never thought it works this way for everyone, but in many cases, it's not the systems fault; it's the employees fault for not working the process smarter, and for not developing skills useful for dealing with people as much as they develop their technical skills.

Interviews are a sales process. Learning to sell is a very useful skill, at every level. I find few developers that have learned this and do it well.