[Towle_]

It should be noted that it matters not whether those excuses are valid. When an entire group buys into the idea, correctly or incorrectly, that their lack of success is someone else's fault, the group as a whole stops trying at all. "What's the point in trying? They won't let us succeed."

edit 1: A strong, telling corollary is that forced immigrant groups always fare poorer than willful immigrant groups. Always.

edit 2: How many generations removed from communist tyranny are America's Chinese and Taiwanese immigrants? How're they doing?

[hardy263]

Although I was born in Taiwan, I moved to Canada when I was 4, so I pretty much grew up with (north) american culture.

I have to say family plays the biggest role in education. My mom forced me to learn the 9x9 multiplication tables in grade 1. By the time we actually reached multiplication tables in grade 2, I was already able to find the areas of simple shapes like circles and trapezoids.

But after grade 4, I didn't receive any extra math education, and had the same education as all my peers. Never had a tutor, and I continued to get 90s in my math courses all through high school.

You mentioned the idea of: "What's the point in trying? They won't let us succeed." And I do hear that a lot from my black peers in high school. If you say anything that can be mildly interpreted as racist, then you're in big trouble. Like "don't walk in dark alleys at night" trouble. There are outliers of course. Our valedictorian was black, and he had the second highest grades in the graduating class. (top grades belonged to chinese kid. I'd have to say that 8/10 of the top students were asian)

I wouldn't say that the "communist tyranny" had anything to do with our academic performance. I'd definitely have to say that asian culture is far more competitive than other groups. Either you get high marks, or get yelled at by your parents.

[maxklein]

'Communist tyranny' as you term it, is very different from systematic racism. I doubt that the attitude of 'they won't let us' is really without merit - just 20 years ago, MTV would not play music by black artists.

Black America has come vey far, and is one of the most dominant cultural forces on the planet. That's for the peak of the society. The bottom of the society still has to deal with a lot of legacy problems, and attitudes like yours don't help the problem.

I doubt that the majority of problems comes from a sense of entitlement, like you strangely enough, seem to believe.

[Towle_]

I doubt that the majority of problems comes from a sense of entitlement, like you strangely enough, seem to believe.

What? I'm not making value judgments.

This is absurdly simple. If people have reason to believe that their efforts will be in vain, then they make no effort. But it's worse than that with socio-economic groups. Some members come to rely on the group's official explanation for lack of success, in order to maintain self-dignity. Those members hold back the others in their group to the best of their ability, else the official defense of mediocrity be disproven.

A great example is the Irish Catholics in America. "No Irish Need Apply" signs? Never happened (in America). http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm The myth of The Other keeping them down was necessary for them as a group. Even up through the first half of the 20th century, they insisted they were being held down as the explanation for their much lower income levels relative to white Protestants. Then came 1960. JFK was elected. If one of your group can get elected president, there's no more need for excuses. Since 1960, Irish Catholics have grown more and more like white Protestants. Both have almost the exact same income distribution now. Catholic church attendance has plummeted since 1960, asymptotically approaching Protestant church attendance. The group stopped reaching for excuses, and things got better for them. Fast.

[maxklein]

Catholics and protestants are indistinguishable from one another.

[Towle_]

Yeah, they are now. That's the freaking point. Two groups who slaughtered each other for centuries are now indistinguishable to observers.

[zeteo]

The average citizen under a communist tyranny had far, far worse problems than being denied suffrage. Read The Gulag Archipelago and The Black Book of Communism for an idea of the horrible sufferings that the Soviet Union imposed on its citizens.

[neworbit]

and today, MTV doesn't play music at all!

Seriously, in 1990, you don't think there were any black musicians on MTV? That seems well at odds with my memory.