[rthomas6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

We spend a lot of our time trying to add pleasure to our lives to (temporarily) boost us above our baseline happiness level, when really we should be spending that time learning how to change the baseline level itself.

Isn't it odd that there are monks who live with nothing who are probably happier than any of us?

[satokema]

How do you know those monks are "happier"? How can you measure something like that?

I can't even measure my own "happiness" most of the time, and it's a different part of my brain giving that report (usually full of crap and not realistic) from the part that actually experiences "happiness".

[rthomas6]

Subjective wellbeing, stress hormone levels, and fMRI readings would all be good ways to measure happiness in my opinion. When I wrote the above, I was thinking of Buddhist monks, but I didn't want to imply other monastic disciplines were somehow lesser, so I just said "monks". I do not have any direct proof of monks being happier, but there are TONS of scientific studies showing better results for experienced meditators on the indicators mentioned at the beginning of this comment.

[thedaemon]

Contentment = happiness in this context?

[watwut]

How do you know they are content? They are literally not allowed to talk about own unhappiness when it happens to them. Monk rules are pretty strict, they have to deal with own crises without raising voice and are often not allowed to talk to outside world in privacy or in public.

[dangerkitteh]

Where are you getting this data? I've known many monks (and nuns too for that matter) and you are encouraged to discuss when you are unhappy. No abbot wants a miserable monk, so they work with you to be sure you are happy and adjusting well to the life. If not, then you mutually come to a decision about what to do next, even if that means leaving the monastery. Implying that they are some sort of prisoner is inaccurate.

[watwut]

Most I gathered from current catholic journals, interviews and forums. They occasionally write about it, because it interest catholic. These are not secrets, they are wrote about so that other catholics can appreciate how hard it is to be nun or monk.

Catholics nuns and monks are supposed to live cloistered and contemplative life, a lot (sometimes completely) isolated inside a monastery. Per definition. Note that sisters and brothers are something a bit different, they work in outside world and make different vows. The formation takes years, but once it is over, they take solemn vows and that is supposed to be for life. That is what you promises. The solemn vows make you nun or monk and you are not supposed to change opinion after. Obviously it is possible to leave, it is not even legal to keep you by force. But if you do that after vows religious consequences do follow.

Whether road outside is easy or difficult for those still in formation depends on monastery in question while it being easier now. I read both types of accounts. But all in all, it is supposed to be hard and my understanding was that every nun and monk goes through hard times (that is partly why they really did not liked defections in past and punished them - defection makes it harder on others in formation).

How hard final rules are depend on monastery. But most strict one limit your ability to talk to up to two hours a day. It is called recreation - you however do work at that time that requires talking and silent work otherwise. Friendships are regulated, you are not supposed to have special relationship with someone else, all should be treated the same including emotionally. In another monastery I read about man did lonely work whole day not talking and had one hour a day where they walked with partner and walked - you was told who it will be and you switched so that they spent same amount of time with everybody.

The way monks and nuns talk, without emotions is also because regulations, rules and vow of obeisance make them so. Talking with anger is wrong for them, content is how you are supposed to look like.

The vow of silence (useless and idle words are forbidden) and obeisance are quite important when speaking of potential happiness, you are really not supposed to say no to superior even if superior changed and is someone different you may not personally fit. If you are unhappy after such change, tough luck. Note the impact of vow of silence on your ability to discuss and compare experiences with fellow monks.

Another interesting bit is that a lot of formation is literally about making you as obeisant as possible, assigning you tasks that are useless while you are supposed to gently smile, answer "yes brother" and fill the hole you just dug. That is expected, just like in army training they have as purpose to fill you into certain mold.

[thedaemon]

There are many religions with monks, they do not share the same rules. To which one are you specifying?

[watwut]

Catholics. I mean nun and monks not sisters and brothers specifically.

[rthomas6]

FWIW, I had Buddhist monks in mind. I don't have any direct empirical evidence this is true, but their methods have been and continue to be empirically validated (to increase subjective wellbeing, decrease stress markers, increase empathy, and improve health), so it's not unlikely this is the case. Full disclosure, meditation helps me in my own life, so I am definitely biased.

[thedaemon]

I've dreamed quite often about becoming a monk. It's not odd at all that if you limit your input your overall self is better for it. It's not really a reachable goal though, to remove all of my responsibilities and become so selfish as to become a monk. Here is the issue, you have a responsibility to the rest of the human race, to become self contained and not give back, is breaking the social contract don't you think?

[ionised]

Monks are some of the least selfish people alive.

They've traded a life of materialism and conflict for self-reflection, asceticism and charity. They don't just hide away and do nothing but take care of themselves.

> Here is the issue, you have a responsibility to the rest of the human race, to become self contained and not give back

This is not a truism and is open to philisophical debate.

[brianpgordon]

It depends on the type of monk. There are certainly plenty of groups which don't contribute back to society.