[sonnyblarney]

This is an unfair argument because it's not a matter of 'culture' it's a broader set of ethical issues at stake.

The Chinese are putting people into concentration camps on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, many are dying and their organs are being harvested.

If the Western press weren't so hypocritically afraid of speaking out - this would be a huge global story, it's a really big deal. This is getting into holocaust territory in 2018 for gosh sakes.

And it's definitely more than Americans speaking out.

[manfredo]

I think pointing to different culture and history is a valid point of discussion. The point of view of a lot of the mainland Chinese people I've spoken to is that the post-Mao CCP has done a lot of bad, but also an immense amount of good for China as a whole. Compare the modern CCP with all of China's past governments of the last two centuries, and it's unambiguously better than Mao, the warlords, or the late Quing dynasty. Sure, maybe China would have been better off if the KMT won the civil war, but we can't change history.

The history of what did happen is that after Mao the country went from struggling to feed most of it's people to what is likely the 2nd most powerful country on Earth. It went from GDP per capitalism of $1,000 in 1970 to $8,000 in 2010. China singlehandedly halved global poverty in doing so. While some of it's actions are appalling to foreigners, they are tolerated for historical reasons. E.g. distrust of organized religion stems from repeated religious rebellions that killed tens of millions of people, so many Chinese see the suppression of religion as a necessary measure to ensure social order. In that sense many Chinese have the same underlying ethical framework (don't needlessly cause harm, try to better the lives of everyday people, etc.), but the lessons history taught the country means that they pursue these ideals in a different way, and opt to make different tradeoffs when balancing different needs. While I am indeed apalled by some of the CCP's actions, I can empathize to a degree as to why Chinese people would still have a positive view of it overall.

Of course, this is coming from a Westerner summarizing my interactions so it obviously risks putting words in other people's mouths.

[sonnyblarney]

I don't doubt that there are cultural differences, and that 'good has been done' in the past, surely there is a cultural context.

And FYI - any otherwise civilized place that was held back by totalitarian communists, or ruined by war was able to 'bounce back'.

All of Europe was in ruin in 1945 - they also grew by 'leaps and bounds' after that time. China just had to wait for Mao to die.

More poignantly - none of this can dismiss much of the abuse - it cannot be written of as 'cultural difference'.

[manfredo]

I think you're missing the point. Ask the question "What is the most effective way of curbing sectarian violence?". Both Chinese and Westerners agree that sectarian violence is bad - that's the same underlying ethical value. But the answer to that question will probably differ. At least in the US we try to curb sectarian violence by promoting tolerance and integration. Historically that had worked pretty well for us, we haven't seen much sectarian violence outside of small scale acts of terror and regional conflict (e.g. fights with early Mormon settlers). China, on the other hand, has lost 30 million people due to a religious rebellion in the 19th century. A staggering figure, exceeding even China's WWII casualties. Furthermore, the Holocaust did not occur in Asia (at least the overwhelming majority of it occurred in Europe) so concentration and surveillance of religious minorities does not strike the same nerve.

With that history, I think a person can genuinely, earnestly believe that the CCP's policy towards Uhigyrs or Falun Gong is limiting human suffering in the grand scheme of things. This is what I mean when I say that it's possible to have the same underlying values, but people from different societies can come up with drastically different or even conflicting implementations.

This is moral relativism to a degree. But empathy is an exercise in relativism. I don't like what China is doing to it's religious minorities, and I don't want this post to come off as trying to justify it. But if we do want to convince the country to change it's ways I think it's important to see why the country is doing what it is, and not pick an easy conclusion like saying China or the CCP is immoral.

[sonnyblarney]

No, I'm definitely not missing your point, I'm disagreeing, fyi and your comment is shocking and repulsive.

You are justifying, on cultural grounds, the mass incarceration of a minority because 'they could pose a potential social problem, even though they are not presently' which is abhorrent.

Yes a 'cultural context' of Han ethnocentric racism and open bigotry, perhaps, but of course this isn't really justifying anything.

There is no rationalization for arbitrarily incarcerating massive parts of the population, it basically doesn't make any sense at all.

Especially considering the none of the Falun Gong, Tibetans, Uighurs represent any threat to China's peace in the first place.

Every place on Earth has had some degree of calamity or violence in the past, and China has definitely had it's share of mass murder (giving and receiving), there's no shortage of this in their own history books, if anything they should be even more enlightened about it all.

There are no cultural arguments that can be made here, the situation, particularly because of the deaths and subsequent organ harvesting, is approaching 'holocaust' terms.

[manfredo]

The point is, it's not because

> they could pose a potential social problem, even though they are not presently

It's because

> This region is exhibiting separatism over religious lines, and our country has an established pattern of religous separatist movements turning into catastrophic wars that claim tens of millions of lives.

In short, while Westerners might see mass incarceration of religous minorities and think, "holy cow, if we don't do something this will be another Holocaust" Chinese might look at Uhigyr separatism and think, "holy cow, if we don't do something this will be another Taiping rebellion". The former occurred more recently, but the latter was several times larger in magnitude. I'm not Chinese myself so I can't speak to the magnitude of the Taiping rebellion in their social memory. But the point is I can at least empathize with their point of view even if I find it's results abhorrent.

And as I have stated repeatedly, do not mistake justifications of Chinese opinions as justifying the actions themselves, and I have repeatedly stated that Chinese treatment of Uhigyrs appalls me. The fact that you accuse me of justifying their actions in spite of explicitly stating otherwise is indicating that you aren't reading my comments with the degree of attention that is necessary to have a productive conversation on a controversial topic like this.

[jjcc]

Your understanding of this issue is much better than many HNers on the reason why the "concentration camp" exist. Most HNers get all information from West Media with many convincing "evidence" with map and photo analysis. That's why you "appall".

However, there are other sources of information selectively filtered by media. For example,here's a story of a famous Uhigyr celebrity went back to her alma mater (in Chinese):

https://www.backchina.com/news/2018/11/20/594759.html

The Uhigyr celebirties are disproportional more than Han based on their poplulation. But they seems to work/live like nothing happen although the whole world are angry. There are 2 possible reason:s

1. They(all of them) don't care about their compatriot

2. They know the "camps" but they also know the real nature of the "camps".

Most Chinese know these celebrities very well through entertainment news. One even show up on TV almost everyday. If you were a Chinese , which reason would you bet?

[tlear]

Think of it as how Americans are completely tolerant of communists while people who lived under communist rule tend to be not so much. Americans have not experienced Cheka, Holodomor or Cultural Revolution. They also have not experienced Taiping rebellion or any of the other massive slaughters that happened in China over religion. Think 30 year war except it happened quite recently.

Would I be ok now with now with grabbing every random moron wearing commie t-shirt and throwing him into re-education camp? No. 15 year old me who just finished reading Archipelag Gulag and was finally told my family history during Holodomor? Well I would get a rope, find a tree and get to work.

Things like this are very complicated. Having said that Google is idiotic trying to reenter PRC market. Communist party will never allow them to grow to any degree there if they have any independence, they would need to become a servant of the party 100%, even then.. likely they will just get all of their tech stolen and bunch of intelligence officers placed into leadership roles. There is NO path for them to grow in China and succeed, what they sell is too valuable for control of people to allow foreign controlled entity any growth inside PRC.

[_khau]

> Think of it as how Americans are completely tolerant of communists

What?

[kmlx]

The American Government is putting brown children in concentration camps, separating them from their parents, and killing some of them in the process.

If I was American I would be ashamed to comment on human rights abuses.

[justicezyx]

> The Chinese are putting people into concentration camps on the basis of their ethnicity or religion, many are dying and their organs are being harvested

A few glossy points are made here that rides on a racial or national stereotype.

1. It was Chinese government put people in concentration camp, not Chinese. In the current political atmosphere, I am very cautious to draw this line as a Chinese myself, for the fear of mobbing attacks on Chinese people oversea.

2. many are dying and their organs are being harvested

You need to have reports to support claims of such outrageous behavior. Also it's not clear what is the actual things being done.

Are people dying naturally in the camp, and got organ harvested? Or they were left to die without reasonable medical attentions.

I presume the organ extraction has not got consent from the people, right?

[sonnyblarney]

#1 is a good point, but in my experience, 'The Governments' approach to Tibetans, Uighurs etc. has the general tacit support of 'The Chinese' and by that I should say 'Han'. Han ethno-nationalism is total and out in the open, it's normative. I suggest most of non-minority China actually supports much of this.

As far as #2, it's splitting hairs. People are put in jail because of their ethnicity or faith, and one way or another, organs are being harvested on mass. Discussions of 'did the prisoners approve of their dismemberment after execution' are just a little insulting really.

It's 2018, this is happening.

http://eng.the-liberty.com/2018/7286/

[justicezyx]

The link you provided is for a Japanese budasim presit who still has hairs. Could you at least provide some information with first hand authenticity, like from survivor and/or those close to them or the ones died in the camp?

[yourbandsucks]

And plenty of American overreactions to terror attacks also had broad support. Same for the Russians, the British, the French..

It's definitely interesting that Chinese nationals were almost universally for dragonfly and yet the "progressive" activists didn't care at all, preferring to pivot the topic into nationalist rivalry. Ask them in a vacuum and they'd say they treasure diverse perspectives..

[int_19h]

> It's definitely interesting that Chinese nationals were almost universally for dragonfly and yet the "progressive" activists didn't care at all

Human rights are not subject to a simple majority rule.

And this whole thing isn't about what Chinese want. It's about what Americans are okay with helping Chinese do. If the majority of Chinese support labor camps for ethnic minorities, that's one thing; but when American citizens aid them in filling those camps, then those citizens are a fair target for their compatriots, regardless of what the Chinese think about it all.

[yourbandsucks]

Dragonfly is a search engine project. It's nothing to do with the situation in Xinjiang other than being in the same country.

The US has our own issues, and I'm not comparing or trivializing anything, but you'd be nuts to say that Google should boycott America over them.

[int_19h]

Dragonfly is a search engine with the ability to track people who use it, said ability being there for the express purpose of cracking down on political dissent.

[wbl]

The Chinese nationals who you heard from with the risk of disappearing on their mind. Ai Weiwei wasn't safe.

[yourbandsucks]

So anyone who disagrees with you is being held hostage? How convenient.

Riskier to speak up pro-dragonfly inside Google on an h-1b visa than it is to speak up against dragonfly from outside China IMO.

[abc-xyz]

I'd love to see you try (and when you speak against it actually highlight how it would be used to send muslims to concentration camps, put anyone who dared to do harmless searches, such as Tiananmen Massacre at risk, etc.). Best case scenario: your posts won't be seen by anyone since keywords such as Tiananmen Massacre will result in it being shadow banned upon submission. Worst case scenario: your life comes to an end.