[thatoneuser]

We do, but it’s a broader problem than simply “minorities incur racism”. Racism manifests in all directions and while it’s valid to have support for minorities, it is nonetheless divisive that our society only takes racism seriously in one direction. All humans face turmoil and struggle because of societal implications, racism simply being one of many. It’s not that the NAACP is wrong or pointless to exist, the problem is that as a society we should try to alleviate the suffering and injustice for all humans rather than grouping people by the millions and thinking that that macroscopic approach is going to solve our problems.

[arthur_pryor]

> We do, but it’s a broader problem than simply “minorities incur racism”. Racism manifests in all directions and while it’s valid to have support for minorities, it is nonetheless divisive that our society only takes racism seriously in one direction.

this implies to me that you believe racism against white people is as much of a problem as racism against minorities. i think this is an absurd claim to make, and i think there is ample concrete evidence in the form of both statistics and anecdotes that shows that racism is much worse for people of color (and yes, in particular, black people).

racism against white people is not a serious problem. at this point in our history, we need no organized effort to combat it.

> All humans face turmoil and struggle because of societal implications, racism simply being one of many.

i don't see how this implies that we should not specifically fight racism. should all problem solving be labeled at only the most general level? should we not have organizations dedicated to fighting racism against minorities because it's only one of the many problems a human might face in the world?

[thatoneuser]

As a white person who has been the direct target of racism - physical and emotional abuse, systemic oppression, social isolation, etc, I hope you can understand that what you are saying is very painful to me. You say that because the suffering of people like me is a minority case (the irony), that my desires for all humans who have been wronged to receive support are negligible. I can tell you that writing this comes at no small expense to my mental state. I have lived with the pain that you would likely attribute to a minority. In fact for much of my life I was a minority.

I won’t compare my severity to others, only acknowledge it exists and that it has devastated my life to this point in various ways. I cannot trust society. I cannot trust my partners. I cannot trust my bosses and coworkers (who knows, maybe that’s a perk). I lose many relationships with people I deeply care about because I grew up having to protect myself, and that meant never allowing myself to grow attached to someone less they turn on me too.

I’m not writing this to you to convince you to change your mind. I’ve learned long ago that people who can’t conceive of white people being victims of racism, and who refuse to acknowledge their needs, are not going to change their minds. They will only dig and dig until the white victim is broken enough to not voice their concerns. At least, that has been my overwhelming experience. From strangers to friends to romantic partners. Everyone who can’t entertain these thoughts and who immediately jump to “where’s your evidence? White people aren’t victims!” - they don’t want a conversation. They want to validate their long held beliefs about how racism “really works”.

I don’t write this for you, I write this as a form of catharsis to myself and to hope that I can be strong enough to improve my situation and help others who are marginalized but rejected. I have cried the entirety of writing this. Having this relentless pressure for defending the idea that whites are the victims of racism too is agony.

You claim “Racism against white people is not a serious problem”. Every time I have to fight this I relive those experiences. Every time I have to go back to those memories to articulate myself, it awakens that pain. But I won’t stop talking about this pain because stopping means that racism against white victims, the disregard and disbelief of their struggle, will continue unchecked and likely grow.

That is not acceptable. Racism in any form is not acceptable. All humans deserve a fair and healthy life. And there’s no fucking reason that in the age of big data and globalized computational efforts that we can’t do better than lumping people into groups of tens of millions and saying “well that’s all the better resolution we can get”. It’s irresponsible. It’s evil. And it’s so terrible that that is the world we have decided is acceptable. Care about all humans. Not just the ones that make you feel good to care about.

[hermitdev]

Yes, discrimination against whites exists.

I got pulled over by Chicago Housing Authority close to 20 years ago. Austensibly for not using my turn signal while changing lanes, after I watched the same CHA vehicle run a red light without signals.

White kid, out of state plates on his way to cram & take a final his senior year at a Southside university. Only time I've been written a ticket by one officer while the 2 other in the CHA van apologized. I was threatened with arrest on campus! Why? For refusing to answer where I work, which they have business knowing, anyway, and certainly not pertittent to a minor traffic violation.

Also, when they pulled me over...yeah, my signal was still on.

[thatoneuser]

I’m sorry that happened. It’s horrible to be a target of the system. It’s doubly painful when no one will believe or appreciate what happened, or even flat out deny it happened. Dissonance is a hell of a drug.

[freedomben]

Sorry to hear about your situation, but know that you aren't alone. A good friend of mine grew up as a white kid in a predominantly black neighborhood, and he was the victim of unbelievable racism. He was bullied mercilessly in school, and was called racial slurs all the time. He tried to fit in and so tried to dress and talk like his black associates, but he was mocked and ridiculed for that too, and told to stop dressing/acting black. They called him a name that is a portmanteau of "white" and the "n-word." He got beat up quite often as well.

So yes, racism against whites is certainly possible, and I agree it takes a very closed-minded person to think that it doesn't happen, just because they haven't seen it.

[thatoneuser]

Thank you for your words. That sounds so familiar. You can’t be white because that’s the “problem”. You try to fit in and that’s another problem. On and on. And now of course as an adult you fit into nothing, because so few people get your perspective. And to make the salt in the wound even more painful, society at large seems to rather enjoy mocking whites/refusing to accept their struggle. It feels like the nation at large has joined in with the bullies of the past to keep the pain going.

But thank you. I hope your friend is finding their way in life. I hope you are having a decent time yourself.

[Dylan16807]

I'm sorry about what you had to go through, and it should be taken seriously.

But that doesn't mean it's more productive to frame racism as an 'everyone' problem. It's primarily a directional problem, and attacking the imbalance helps many cases like yours too. Taking away discrimination lets people focus less on us-vs-them.

A generic "don't be shitty to people" is a correct message but not a compelling one. It doesn't help people very much.

[thatoneuser]

How exactly does helping one group while ignoring another help the other? Please, I’d like to understand logistically how that works. I don’t see it. I think you are defending a flawed idea.

I never said “don’t be shitty to people” is the solution, any more than the NAACP used “don’t be shitty to colored people” as their solution. You’re being reductionist to ignore the reality and refuse an approach that helps everyone instead of just some.

[Dylan16807]

It's harder to solve a problem if you ignore the typical case while shaping your plan. And that's what it means to be completely unbiased in how you say racism is bad.

> How exactly does helping one group while ignoring another help the other? Please, I’d like to understand logistically how that works. I don’t see it. I think you are defending a flawed idea.

If racism stopped being a daily fact of life for the people that hurt you, I really think they would have hurt you a lot less.

[thatoneuser]

So you have nothing to validate your claims. You can’t help but to reject any vision that you don’t understand because you know how racism “really works”, and you aren’t willing to have a discussion of real problems. Enjoy living in your bubble, ignoring the suffering of so many just because they aren’t the ones that you believe to be the victims. If there were only people like you in the world, we’d still have slavery and women still wouldn’t vote. Maybe some day you’ll be able to understand that.

You don’t know the “typical case.” No one does. We can’t. We don’t have the data. You’re making assumptions about what racism “really is”. Racism occurs on a personal basis. Anyone can be a victim to it. And no ones victimhood can nor should be waved off from an outsider who doesn’t understand, or equally who’s willing to say “nah doesn’t count.”

And your last paragraph you dare to insinuate that my suffering, or more to the point I’m making - other people who’s suffering is similar to mine - is just solved by helping those who inflicted this upon me. Well if that’s the case, and under your view minorities suffer at the hands of whites, it only makes sense that since whites are at the top of this hierarchy that we ought to just help whites out because then everything else in the chain follows! We help whites with whatever causes them to inflict pain on the minorities, and then the minorities will be saved as well as the victims of the minorities.

But I bet you don’t see it that way. I bet this logic of “disregard whites” is going to be defended no matter what mental gymnastics it requires. No matter how I apply your own logic against itself, I bet you’ll come to the same conclusion and you’ll still try to convince me that helping all humans who suffer is impossible or untenable or even just down right immoral.

I’ve lived with people telling me this all my life. From my oppressors to privileged folks who have never experienced an ounce of racism in their life - they all tell me my struggles don’t matter and only the people that they consider to be victims matter. It’s sad. It’s sad that the same propaganda that led us to chaining up blacks and suppressing the rights of women and minorities is still alive and well. It’s sad that we can’t seem to learn this lesson. But this is what humans are. Our dissonance masks reality from us. We allow suffering for our own convenience. And that probably won’t ever change.

[shard972]

> racism against white people is not a serious problem. at this point in our history, we need no organized effort to combat it.

That's an incredibly racist thing to say. Just because white society created modern civilisation you can't be racist against whites?

Just the idea that somehow a homeless white crack addict can be kicked around by a black businessman is only racist when the homeless man hits back its literal race supremacy.

[thatoneuser]

You’re right. And the fact that you’re being downvoted for making this astute observation really shows is how pervasive racism against whites has become. The left laughs when you try to say the internet has a liberal bias, but if the statement “racism against whites isn’t a serious problem” gets upvotes and an argument against that gets downvoted - nothing more needs to be said.

And frankly what more should we say? People have picked their beliefs. And the overwhelming majority seems to be racism means whites harm blacks. They can’t or won’t accept racism in any other form. I don’t think we can do much to convince them at this point.

Fairness for all humans, regardless of race, gender, etc. That’s all we’re asking. And somehow. Somehow. That’s a problem for the majority of people.

[tareqak]

From the second paragraph of the Wikipedia page on the NAACP [0]:

Its mission in the 21st century is "to ensure the political, educational, social, and economic equality of rights of all persons and to eliminate race-based discrimination."

It looks like all directions are covered. That the NAACP continues to work with the community of people it originally started to assist and advocate only speaks to the amount of inequality that remains in areas such as interactions involving law enforcement, voter suppression, and lack of economic opportunities.

Can you please give examples? The controversial one that comes to mind is affirmative action in college admissions. Another one might be diversity and inclusion groups / unconscious bias training in some companies, but I never heard any specific reasons behind the disapproval beyond inexplicable dislike.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAACP

[thatoneuser]

Well for one we can both hopefully agree that a mission statement doesn’t have to reflect the actions and intentions of an organization. So to cite that as evidence that “all directions are covered” is not valid. Can you show me examples in which the NAACP has benefited racial oppression of whites to support their mission statement?

College admissions as you point out are something that can harm marginalized white people, in the sense that there are finite resources in our society. Taking opportunities from one marginalized group to give to another doesn’t move us forward as a whole, it simply shifts where the injustice is. You can abstract this a bit and find other examples with the same pattern.

However, this isn’t the intention of my comment per se. The broader point is that focusing on one group and ignoring the others is the problem. Shifting around our agony while we have massive wealth/power inequality is sidestepping the real issue at hand - we have a society in which suffering for the unequal benefit of others is inevitable. Maybe today it’s more on minorities. Maybe tomorrow we switch gears and whites are the greatest to suffer. Choose your linchpin, it doesn’t matter - the point is we need to support all humans. I’d say not even just our own country, but literally create a realistic opportunity for all humans in the world to be able to live within the comfort and privilege that our collective accomplishments have to offer.

As long as we keep to our tribal ways of deciding that this group or that group deserves more, we are doomed to swing on this never ending pendulum.

[claudiawerner]

A good portion of modern day activism does take this "macro" approach by extending the scope of activities further and further for those disadvantaged. There will always be a focus on those more disadvantaged groups, firstly because of the immediacy of their problems, and secondly because of the fact that it's hard to get people to share the same set of aims about society as a whole.

In the second half of the 20th century, many (most?) of the movements for anti-racism were also linked with feminist (gender) and socialist (class, or from another angle, your macroscopic vision) movements, and nowadays most such movements are intersectional anyway. I think that's a good thing, while there are good critiques of intersectionalism, even the critiques favour approaches that leverage immediacy and universality.