[thatoneuser]

As a white person who has been the direct target of racism - physical and emotional abuse, systemic oppression, social isolation, etc, I hope you can understand that what you are saying is very painful to me. You say that because the suffering of people like me is a minority case (the irony), that my desires for all humans who have been wronged to receive support are negligible. I can tell you that writing this comes at no small expense to my mental state. I have lived with the pain that you would likely attribute to a minority. In fact for much of my life I was a minority.

I won’t compare my severity to others, only acknowledge it exists and that it has devastated my life to this point in various ways. I cannot trust society. I cannot trust my partners. I cannot trust my bosses and coworkers (who knows, maybe that’s a perk). I lose many relationships with people I deeply care about because I grew up having to protect myself, and that meant never allowing myself to grow attached to someone less they turn on me too.

I’m not writing this to you to convince you to change your mind. I’ve learned long ago that people who can’t conceive of white people being victims of racism, and who refuse to acknowledge their needs, are not going to change their minds. They will only dig and dig until the white victim is broken enough to not voice their concerns. At least, that has been my overwhelming experience. From strangers to friends to romantic partners. Everyone who can’t entertain these thoughts and who immediately jump to “where’s your evidence? White people aren’t victims!” - they don’t want a conversation. They want to validate their long held beliefs about how racism “really works”.

I don’t write this for you, I write this as a form of catharsis to myself and to hope that I can be strong enough to improve my situation and help others who are marginalized but rejected. I have cried the entirety of writing this. Having this relentless pressure for defending the idea that whites are the victims of racism too is agony.

You claim “Racism against white people is not a serious problem”. Every time I have to fight this I relive those experiences. Every time I have to go back to those memories to articulate myself, it awakens that pain. But I won’t stop talking about this pain because stopping means that racism against white victims, the disregard and disbelief of their struggle, will continue unchecked and likely grow.

That is not acceptable. Racism in any form is not acceptable. All humans deserve a fair and healthy life. And there’s no fucking reason that in the age of big data and globalized computational efforts that we can’t do better than lumping people into groups of tens of millions and saying “well that’s all the better resolution we can get”. It’s irresponsible. It’s evil. And it’s so terrible that that is the world we have decided is acceptable. Care about all humans. Not just the ones that make you feel good to care about.

[hermitdev]

Yes, discrimination against whites exists.

I got pulled over by Chicago Housing Authority close to 20 years ago. Austensibly for not using my turn signal while changing lanes, after I watched the same CHA vehicle run a red light without signals.

White kid, out of state plates on his way to cram & take a final his senior year at a Southside university. Only time I've been written a ticket by one officer while the 2 other in the CHA van apologized. I was threatened with arrest on campus! Why? For refusing to answer where I work, which they have business knowing, anyway, and certainly not pertittent to a minor traffic violation.

Also, when they pulled me over...yeah, my signal was still on.

[thatoneuser]

I’m sorry that happened. It’s horrible to be a target of the system. It’s doubly painful when no one will believe or appreciate what happened, or even flat out deny it happened. Dissonance is a hell of a drug.

[freedomben]

Sorry to hear about your situation, but know that you aren't alone. A good friend of mine grew up as a white kid in a predominantly black neighborhood, and he was the victim of unbelievable racism. He was bullied mercilessly in school, and was called racial slurs all the time. He tried to fit in and so tried to dress and talk like his black associates, but he was mocked and ridiculed for that too, and told to stop dressing/acting black. They called him a name that is a portmanteau of "white" and the "n-word." He got beat up quite often as well.

So yes, racism against whites is certainly possible, and I agree it takes a very closed-minded person to think that it doesn't happen, just because they haven't seen it.

[thatoneuser]

Thank you for your words. That sounds so familiar. You can’t be white because that’s the “problem”. You try to fit in and that’s another problem. On and on. And now of course as an adult you fit into nothing, because so few people get your perspective. And to make the salt in the wound even more painful, society at large seems to rather enjoy mocking whites/refusing to accept their struggle. It feels like the nation at large has joined in with the bullies of the past to keep the pain going.

But thank you. I hope your friend is finding their way in life. I hope you are having a decent time yourself.

[Dylan16807]

I'm sorry about what you had to go through, and it should be taken seriously.

But that doesn't mean it's more productive to frame racism as an 'everyone' problem. It's primarily a directional problem, and attacking the imbalance helps many cases like yours too. Taking away discrimination lets people focus less on us-vs-them.

A generic "don't be shitty to people" is a correct message but not a compelling one. It doesn't help people very much.

[thatoneuser]

How exactly does helping one group while ignoring another help the other? Please, I’d like to understand logistically how that works. I don’t see it. I think you are defending a flawed idea.

I never said “don’t be shitty to people” is the solution, any more than the NAACP used “don’t be shitty to colored people” as their solution. You’re being reductionist to ignore the reality and refuse an approach that helps everyone instead of just some.

[Dylan16807]

It's harder to solve a problem if you ignore the typical case while shaping your plan. And that's what it means to be completely unbiased in how you say racism is bad.

> How exactly does helping one group while ignoring another help the other? Please, I’d like to understand logistically how that works. I don’t see it. I think you are defending a flawed idea.

If racism stopped being a daily fact of life for the people that hurt you, I really think they would have hurt you a lot less.

[thatoneuser]

So you have nothing to validate your claims. You can’t help but to reject any vision that you don’t understand because you know how racism “really works”, and you aren’t willing to have a discussion of real problems. Enjoy living in your bubble, ignoring the suffering of so many just because they aren’t the ones that you believe to be the victims. If there were only people like you in the world, we’d still have slavery and women still wouldn’t vote. Maybe some day you’ll be able to understand that.

You don’t know the “typical case.” No one does. We can’t. We don’t have the data. You’re making assumptions about what racism “really is”. Racism occurs on a personal basis. Anyone can be a victim to it. And no ones victimhood can nor should be waved off from an outsider who doesn’t understand, or equally who’s willing to say “nah doesn’t count.”

And your last paragraph you dare to insinuate that my suffering, or more to the point I’m making - other people who’s suffering is similar to mine - is just solved by helping those who inflicted this upon me. Well if that’s the case, and under your view minorities suffer at the hands of whites, it only makes sense that since whites are at the top of this hierarchy that we ought to just help whites out because then everything else in the chain follows! We help whites with whatever causes them to inflict pain on the minorities, and then the minorities will be saved as well as the victims of the minorities.

But I bet you don’t see it that way. I bet this logic of “disregard whites” is going to be defended no matter what mental gymnastics it requires. No matter how I apply your own logic against itself, I bet you’ll come to the same conclusion and you’ll still try to convince me that helping all humans who suffer is impossible or untenable or even just down right immoral.

I’ve lived with people telling me this all my life. From my oppressors to privileged folks who have never experienced an ounce of racism in their life - they all tell me my struggles don’t matter and only the people that they consider to be victims matter. It’s sad. It’s sad that the same propaganda that led us to chaining up blacks and suppressing the rights of women and minorities is still alive and well. It’s sad that we can’t seem to learn this lesson. But this is what humans are. Our dissonance masks reality from us. We allow suffering for our own convenience. And that probably won’t ever change.

[Dylan16807]

"Anyone can be a victim" is completely true. But not anyone is equally likely to be a victim. In the US, the percentage of white racism victims is quite small.

> If there were only people like you in the world, we’d still have slavery and women still wouldn’t vote.

That's the opposite of focusing on the group where the largest percent is affected. I can't fathom what you think my argument is if you reach that conclusion.

> We help whites with whatever causes them to inflict pain on the minorities, and then the minorities will be saved as well as the victims of the minorities.

So we remove the imbalance of power and correct the idea that there are inherent differences between the groups? Sure!

Note that this is the same as my original plan.

> to convince me that helping all humans who suffer is impossible or untenable or even just down right immoral

It's worth trying, but you need a focused message, and you need to acknowledge that different groups have different concentrations of suffering. Lest you become an "all lives matter" proponent who is saying something technically true but with a subtext that black shootings by police aren't an issue worth fighting over.