[Retric]

The problem is inception crossed the line into fantasy. Antigravity paint or whatever mcguffin you want to name is explicitly changing some rule. Inception went the magic wand route.

That’s not uncommon. The Matrix for example was straddling that line, but eventually crossed it.

[Lio]

I may be misunderstanding this but isn't the point in Inception that what they are experiencing is explicitly not real?

That because they are inside a dream-like state the rules of reality can be broken and it is only by spotting when the rules of reality are broken that you can tell you're not in the real world.

[Retric]

That I don't have a problem with. You can have people see all kinds of crap while tripping on LSD without issue.

It's the mechanics like 10^(layers deep) where going deeper kept increasing time compression in dreams. Dragon Ball Z for example had space ships, but the mechanics of the world where based on fantasy ideas.

[jessaustin]

In what sense did "Matrix" cross that line?

[Retric]

The best example was in the sequels when Neo affected the machines in the ‘real’ world while he was also in the ‘real’ world. You can interpret that as this all taking place in a simulation, but that means he could have arbitrarily results. If it’s a simulation then him picking up a rock and turning it into a spaceship is viable. Alternatively, he has some undefined mystical connection to the machine world, though again same deal.

But, you see this stuff much earlier, take ‘residual self image’ and consider what that’s supposed to mean.

[philwelch]

> The best example was in the sequels when Neo affected the machines in the ‘real’ world while he was also in the ‘real’ world. You can interpret that as this all taking place in a simulation, but that means he could have arbitrarily results.

Neo's hardware implants allow him to wirelessly interface with the machine world, which he has root access to. This is even better established when he seems to fall into a coma and ends up being in the Matrix. I don't know why this wasn't obvious to anyone else.

> Alternatively, he has some undefined mystical connection to the machine world

Wireless connectivity isn't undefined or mystical!

> But, you see this stuff much earlier, take ‘residual self image’ and consider what that’s supposed to mean.

I don't think it actually counts as breaking the rules if you do it at the same point that you're originally explaining the rules, which is where "residual self-image" comes from.

Also, just as a fun fact, in one of the earlier revisions of the script of the first movie, Switch was supposed to be a transgender character who was one gender in the Matrix and the opposite gender in the physical world. This was dropped for some reason.

[Retric]

> counts as breaking the rules if you do it at the same point that you're originally explaining the rules

It’s not that it’s a rule it’s that it’s an undefined rule. If they had said nothing then you don’t know, perhaps they are taking photos and uploading avatars off camera, or perhaps the Matrix keeps track of this stuff, or perhaps the Matrix downloads the data from your mind. Residual self immage does not answer the question.

Characters are not omnipotent. Character X explaining the rule does not mean Rule X actually applies. For example character says you need to use a plug to jack into the Matrix and need a hardline to get out. Later on you break those rules and that’s fine the character does not know what they are talking about.

But, the Sci-fi fantasy devide is not the lack of technology, as cellphones work just fine in Dresden Files and other Urban Fantasy. It’s the type of rules that exist and how they can be broken without destroying the suspension of disbelief. The cold equations is a good low budget film based around some very hard rules. The Matrix fails this, you can come up for explanations for anything that happen, but doing so is not bound by any rule in the world.

Further, it frames things in non technical terms perhaps the character just noticed he has a modem up his bumb. Perhaps he can wirelessly hack an alarm clock rather than setting the snooze button. Or maybe he has psy powers and can cause EMP’s. Undefined major plot elements under the control of the protagonist or antagonist is the hallmark of Fantasy. What can and can’t Gandalf do?

[dragonwriter]

> but that means he could have arbitrarily results.

Well, he could have, if he understood the simulation well enough; even in the overt simulation, which he was coached on, he had more constrained apparent ability. He clearly goes through an awakening over a period about the nature of the “real” world and his ability within it, that in some way parallels (without the coaching) his earlier awakening to the Matrix, but at it's most advanced point (as far as his externalized use of abilities, at least) it is still obviously less complete than the point he reaches with the Matrix at the end of the first movie.

> But, you see this stuff much earlier, take ‘residual self image’ and consider what that’s supposed to mean

That everything the humans “know” about the Matrix is curated material that is part of the system of control revealed later in the series, and is often misleading, and frequently incoherent under careful examination, which is discouraged by the quasi-religious framework of belief that is itself part of the system of control.

[Retric]

I am more referring to how it fits in with the story. What humans know about the Matrix is treated like what Hogwarts professors know about magic vs what starfleet academy knows about warp cores.

The fact that people jacking in can die is not treated as an open technical problem to be solved, but gamps rules of transformation. Warp cores are not nessisarily fully understood, but they are actively trying to test out and improve them. In the Matrix they don’t treat things as a theory they just notice stuff and slap a name on it. At the same time they built a loading program to bring guns into the system. Which is why I am saying it’s even a close call between science fiction and fantasy.

[jessaustin]

Oh, sure, the sequels were problematic. I actually interpreted the real world shenanigans as something of a Gurren Lagann-style wink at the audience. I misunderstood the post above.

[kibibu]

2001 did exactly the same. Some magical fantasy space obelisk made monkeys kill each other. It's stupid.

[swish_bob]

Use tools. The tool use was the point.

[kibibu]

It was a large, black, magic rock.

[Retric]

A magic rock by some likely 100,000+ year more advanced civilization. Story wise however they could have been visiting the Grand Cannon as neither the protagonist or antagonist had access to magic. You could do the same thing with the rock saying releasing the Nanite cloud and nothing changes.

As far as 2001 is concerned it’s basicly highly advanced Starfish Aliens. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StarfishAliens Which seems like the most likely contact with extraterrestrials we will see. Motivation and reasoning are not going to be obvious, is this some major effort on part of their civilization or some 6th graders high school science project we just don’t know.

Again though, the Aliens are mostly irrelevant, it’s HAL human relations that’s driving things.

[swish_bob]

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." A.C. Clarke

It's (partly) a story about uplifting a species. Our species ...