[fiveo]

I second to you. In Vancouver, I've seen many companies who have probably live as long as 3-5 years before they crashed and closed down permanently.

Most of the issues are related to their inability to innovate and their use of old technology (and methodology).

I don't mean to be rude but sometime I viewed Canadian technology companies as the western-but-India-in-the-past kind of company.

Many companies in Vancouver is looking for 7-10 years experienced (enterprise) Java developers. Gone is the need of fresh-grad/junior developers position.

Guess what the fresh-grads do?

1) Go back to Asia (most immigrants came from Asia)

2) Go south of the border to Google, Microsoft, or Amazon.

The cycle breaks down there. Tough really.

I've been here for almost 10 years since college and I'm starting to plan my move to south of the border or to Asia.

[potatolicious]

There's no money in Canada - raising funding is like praying to the Gods. Consequently, you get a lot of smaller businesses, as opposed to the uniquely American model of the get-big-fast startup (see: Google, Amazon, etc).

There's also the issue of talent drain and pay. I'm currently south of the border working for double what my going rate is in Canada. Most of the people I went to university with are also here (as in the USA).

Yes, for the people not familiar with Canadian software, double. I'd like to be closer to home and live in a more progressive society, but it's a 50% pay cut to do so.

I continue to struggle to understand why things are this bad. How is that a mere hop across the border can easily double one's pay? What prevents Canadian companies from being compensation-competitive with American ones?

Part of it is the distinct lack of "real" engineering jobs. A lot of work I've seen either belongs to the thoroughly disreputable gaming industry, or working as Java monkeys pounding on keyboards... neither option appeals to most top talent.

The other part is the culture of satellites - much of the software work I've found in Canada is at satellite offices of American companies, and having worked at one before, it seems that it's less "satellite office" and more "place full of cheaper people so we don't have to pay Californians to do the menial stuff".

But still, what's with the lack of high-paying software gigs in Canada?

[fiveo]

Oh where do I start with this one hehehe.

SR&ED: I've said this before and I'm going to say this once again. It attracts fishy investors, clueless businessmen, lame business models (clone of X social networking site), and a sense of false success.

Immigrants: no, it's not their fault. But they're trying to survive. So when everyone is trying to survive, basic needs must be fulfilled first (food, house, clothes).

Supply > Demand in HR: People want to move to Vancouver (even people from the East Coast) to enjoy life. But the demand of jobs aren't that many. So you get people from everywhere who probably have 10 years of experience coming to Vancouver.

Supply > Demand in Products: Not too many people are willing to buy software or services. Probably because they don't care or they don't need it or because they want to save money to survive (immigrants).

Enjoy Life: Laziness. Get it done by 5, I want to go skiing/fishing/hiking. Forget unit-test.

Government Oriented: They rule around here. You know how it is with the government contracts and deals and whatnot. Man, even Government own and run online gambling website (http://www.playnow.com)

As you've said it before: disreputable gaming industry. Tons of online gambling companies based in Vancouver. I don't see the rate to go down at anytime soon, especially when our municipal just open its own. (see above).

Politics: due to fierce competition (survival) and/or laziness, politics is all time high. Ability to get things done go down significantly. Guess what's the hottest job in Vancouver? Business Analyst. Guess what they do (mostly)?

All these things created an unhealthy cycle. Suddenly people don't want to be an engineer or a developer. They all want to go to the managerial position.

One other choice is to move East to Toronto. There's better chance there, albeit not superb, but still way better than the West coast.

[potatolicious]

> "One other choice is to move East to Toronto."

Well, sure, lesser of two evils anyways. The choices are: unemployment in an expensive city like Vancouver, or crappy employment in a cheaper city like Toronto, or slave your ass away and be abused at a media/gaming company in a city like Montreal.

Or live in the desolate tundra that is Ottawa where lucrative but mind-numbingly boring government contracts abound.

No wonder Canada's software scene is completely dead.

I grew up in Vancouver, moved east for school, and looked on both coasts for jobs near graduation. Vancouver had few jobs, and your best bet was EA (no thanks!). Toronto had more interest in entry-level engineers, but upon closer inspection most were monkey jobs pounding out Java boilerplate for some bank or other gargantuan legacy enterprise system.

There were a few companies I encountered that did honestly really cool stuff... they were also tiny and unstable (financially) as hell. Generally a poor idea to work the only good job in town.

I loved living in both Vancouver and Toronto, and honestly wish I can have that lifestyle back (the poverty levels I see in the US is shocking and appalling to my over-protected Canadian ass). But damn, slaving at some enterprise Java-factory for half the pay is a pretty high price to pay.

[fiveo]

Yeah, EA Vancouver/Burnaby is one of those "satellite" branches: when there's a problem, they get to experience first-hand on what downsizing means. Wouldn't count as the best bet since aside from OT there are big possibilities of massive lay-offs.

I'd take entry-level Java boilerplate code at any given day than a Microsoft boilerplate code (which is what Vancouver has to offer these days, especially with the government around here). Vancouver salary is also between 20-30% less than to that in Toronto.

And lately, since all the fun lies in Asia, I can't wait to go there. Vancouver becomes boring (and gray) to me. Especially with the 10 months of rain.

[jbarham]

> the poverty levels I see in the US is shocking and appalling to my over-protected Canadian ass

I daresay American tourists find the poverty levels in Vancouver's downtown eastside just as shocking and appalling.

[potatolicious]

'Tis true. The poverty and general situation on the eastside is pretty saddening.

It is, however, nothing compared to Seattle where I am now. Where in Vancouver the violence and poverty seem to be confined to a small-ish neighborhood, in Seattle it's rampant and everywhere.

Poverty is nothing new - I've seen it in every place I've ever lived. It is however somewhat shocking to see homelessness overrun an entire city - there's not a single spot in downtown Seattle (or hell, anywhere within city limits) where you can't find vagrants or street kids.

This isn't a value judgment on homelessness in general, but rather an observation that unlike some cities where the worst of the poverty is geographically distinct, here in Seattle it's just... everywhere.

Maybe it's for the better - the harder it is for you to avert your eyes, the more compelled you may be to fix it.

Well, scratch that, the city of Seattle just cut even more funding to homeless social services.