[explainplease]

> I don't think it is unreasonable to expect to be able to download a package from the internet that is marked as "Ubuntu 18.04", use the package manager to install it and for it to work properly.

That's preposterous. If you downloaded a random MSI marked "Windows [your version]", installed it on Windows [your version], and it crashed, you wouldn't blame Microsoft.

> There is also about 3 or 4 different methods (that are somewhat official) to install applications. Which is crazy.

And how many are there for Windows? Unzip a Zip file? Run an EXE installer? Run an MSI installer? Download and execute a launcher that downloads and runs the actual installer, and gives up completely and deletes the partial download at the slightest hiccup? Install a whole software management platform like Steam or Windows Store or...?

> This problem only exists on Linux.

That's absolutely absurd.

> The whole "Works For Me" attitude. Again this attitude stinks.

The whole "I found a problem in a vendor's app so I'm going to blame the entire OS and platform instead" attitude. This attitude stinks.

> I still have some usage hangups on Windows since the Windows 2000 days and I have a lot of problems with newer versions of windows because I just get confused with the interface. It isn't that uncommon tbh. In the end I've learnt enough powershell now it not an issue for me.

Your buddy couldn't (or wouldn't?) click through a few menus or type "browser" into the KDE equivalent of the Start Menu, and you cite that as a problem in Plasma, and then say that you prefer PowerShell?

Bizarre.

[thepp1983]

> That's preposterous. If you downloaded a random MSI marked "Windows [your version]", installed it on Windows [your version], and it crashed, you wouldn't blame Microsoft.

No. This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the point I was making. So I am going to make it crystal clear. The problems I've had with installing slack, I've had with Spotify, Steam, Dropbox and there are quite a few others I am sure I've forgotten.

If you create a program for MacOSX, Android, iOS etc. You can be sure that there are certain APIs available to you and you can be pretty confident that your program is going to work if built against those APIs. Your users can be confident if they download your application there is a pretty good change it is going to work.

Sure with Android there will be device specific issues, or if it is a Windows PC they may have faulty hardware or a bad installation. However the chances that the application is going to work is much higher than GNU/Linux because fragmentation in what the user base runs is much lower. That is just the reality of the situation.

Nothing remotely equivalent exists for Linux. Have the wrong distro ... there probably isn't a package. Have a slightly older distro ... There probably isn't a package for you.

Even with attempts such as Flatpack, SnapStore etc. The same situation is present. This is because of the nature of any GNU/Linux distro is that they are all fragmented in terms of underlying libraries, kernel versions, UI versions, package managers etc.

It is a mess. It will always be a mess as long as people don't recognise it as a real problem. I doubt it will get solved in our lifetimes.

If you want to make smart ass remarks about it while ignoring the real issue so be it.

> The whole "I found a problem in a vendor's app so I'm going to blame the entire OS and platform instead" attitude. This attitude stinks.

Thanks for taking me out of context. I was specifically talking about user environments which are supplied by those who control the distro. Please don't be disingenuous.

> Your buddy couldn't (or wouldn't?) click through a few menus or type "browser" into the KDE equivalent of the Start Menu, and you cite that as a problem in Plasma, and then say that you prefer PowerShell? Bizarre.

People become familiar with certain user interfaces. Saying that everyone should just understand how to use a new interface even if it mimicks (btw poorly) another OS which is ubiquitous really shows that their lack of touch with the majority of users.

Lots of users can have real problems moving between versions of one application. That why user interface guidelines, best practices, user testing and user interface design are its whole own field in this industry. Pretending because something looks superficially the same means that someone should be able to use it is ridiculous. Also KDE Plasma it doesn't really look like Windows or works like it, KDE plasma UI is what happens when a teenager that has just learnt how to use Photoshop effects tool has gone mad with gradients and bloom effects, the whole thing is a mess visually.

In response to powershell comment. It is normally easier to just learn a shell like bash on a *nix system and just use that then try using the absolutely awful UIs they normally provide you with. The same is true with Modern Windows. Each time there is a update to Windows 10 they have changed the location of some control panel option for the umpteeth time. So I already know how to use powershell and install the management tools, it is normally easier FOR ME to use that rather than try to navigate the labyrinth of control panel options.

[explainplease]

> No. This is the fundamental misunderstanding of the point I was making. So I am going to make it crystal clear. The problems I've had with installing slack, I've had with Spotify, Steam, Dropbox and there are quite a few others I am sure I've forgotten.

It's not a misunderstanding at all--you're explicitly blaming the platform, and your subsequent comment does just that:

> Even with attempts such as Flatpack, SnapStore etc. The same situation is present. This is because of the nature of any GNU/Linux distro is that they are all fragmented in terms of underlying libraries, kernel versions, UI versions, package managers etc.

Meanwhile, millions of Linux users have no problems with Steam or Dropbox. But you have unspecified problems, and therefore Linux is bad.

> Nothing remotely equivalent exists for Linux.

That's simply false. If you are being honest, then you don't know what you're talking about.

> Have the wrong distro ... there probably isn't a package.

So then use a popular, supported one. Packages for RHEL/CentOS, Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, and even SuSe are nearly ubiquitous. If you freely choose to use obscure, forked-3-levels-deep Bob's Linux 2018, don't complain that there's no bespoke package for arbitrary software you want. That's silly.

> Have a slightly older distro ... There probably isn't a package for you.

Also false. Most vendor packages are for years-old LTS releases. If you've actually tried this, you should know this.

> Even with attempts such as Flatpack, SnapStore etc. The same situation is present. This is because of the nature of any GNU/Linux distro is that they are all fragmented in terms of underlying libraries, kernel versions, UI versions, package managers etc.

Bizarre. Flatpack and Snap are specifically designed to solve that problem, but you claim that they have that problem. Why are you saying these things that are patently untrue?

> It is a mess. It will always be a mess as long as people don't recognise it as a real problem.

It's just weird that you say "as long as people don't recognize it as a real problem" immediately after mentioning attempts to explicitly solve the problem. Are you writing these words seriously?

> I doubt it will get solved in our lifetimes.

Meanwhile, millions of people happily continue using their Linux desktops. And millions of people continue using Windows, suffering all of its problems, such as not actually being in control of their own machines anymore (it's amazing how far Microsoft has fallen just since Windows 7).

> If you want to make smart ass remarks about it while ignoring the real issue so be it.

Your words agree with neither my comments nor your own. Bizarre.

> Thanks for taking me out of context. I was specifically talking about user environments which are supplied by those who control the distro.

Not out of context at all. You're blaming the platform instead of the app vendor.

> Please don't be disingenuous.

Please don't project. You say A in one sentence and not-A in the next. You don't even seem to agree with yourself.

> People become familiar with certain user interfaces. Saying that everyone should just understand how to use a new interface even if it mimicks (btw poorly) another OS which is ubiquitous really shows that their lack of touch with the majority of users.

You're saying that an aerospace engineer can't, in a few seconds, click what appears to be a Start Menu-like menu in the Start Menu place, type "browser" into the box labeled "search", and find "Firefox Web Browser"? I don't believe you. If he can figure out how to make an aircraft fly, and use complicated fluid dynamics modeling software, he can figure out how to launch Firefox. Going from Windows to Plasma is no more complicated than going from Windows 7 to Windows 8 and 10--in fact, probably much simpler, considering the enormous UI changes Microsoft made. And it's claims like this that suggest it's you being disingenuous.

> Lots of users can have real problems moving between versions of one application. That why user interface guidelines, best practices, user testing and user interface design are its whole own field in this industry.

Then you ought to be heaping criticism on Microsoft for Windows 8 and 10. How many times have I seen someone move from Windows 7 to 8/10 and say, "I can't use this UI, it's awful!" Instead you act as if Linux UIs are uniquely problematic.

> Pretending because something looks superficially the same means that someone should be able to use it is ridiculous.

"A imitates B, but you can't expect people who are accustomed to B to be able to actually use A." Bizarre.

How many times I've heard someone say, "I installed Ubuntu on my 80-year-old grandma's computer and haven't heard her ask for help since. She barely even noticed a difference. She uses the Web and everything." But your hypothetical aerospace engineer can't launch Firefox. Ah, anecdotes.

> KDE plasma UI is what happens when a teenager that has just learnt how to use Photoshop effects tool has gone mad with gradients and bloom effects, the whole thing is a mess visually.

Now this is where I agree with you. I don't like the default Plasma themes. That's been a problem since KDE 4. But that's superficial. You can change all that. With Windows and Mac, you can't--you can take it or leave it. "But that's complicated, users won't want to do that"--beside the point: they can. Windows has an ugly mess of a UI, and you can't fix it. That's where you ought to be complaining.

> Each time there is a update to Windows 10 they have changed the location of some control panel option for the umpteeth time. So I already know how to use powershell and install the management tools, it is normally easier FOR ME to use that rather than try to navigate the labyrinth of control panel options.

Understandable. A few scripts can make life a lot easier on Windows.

> In response to powershell comment. It is normally easier to just learn a shell like bash on a *nix system and just use that then try using the absolutely awful UIs they normally provide you with.

I'm not a fan of the default UIs, but for an average user, they're certainly more usable and discoverable than looking up shell commands. This is another example of the inconsistency of your complaints. You seem to be complaining about 5 different problems at the same time, mixing them all together.

[thepp1983]

Oh great a comment pyramid. I am not going to answer this point by point because I will be here for the next few days.

> Meanwhile, millions of Linux users have no problems with Steam or Dropbox. But you have unspecified problems, and therefore Linux is bad.

I doubt it is Millions tbh. At my last contract I knew 3 other developers that could use Linux in a building of 100s of developers.

Even if it does work (most of the time) you get shitty problems like this:

https://askubuntu.com/questions/732967/how-to-fix-non-workin...

BTW that problem still exists (last time I checked was 18.04).

Yes Linux is bad because simple problems that have been solved even on obscure platforms such as Amiga OS have less compatibility problems than Linux based operating systems between versions of the OS. I have an Amiga 1200 running version 3.9 of the OS which was released over 20 years ago probably and I have no problems installing things like web browsers, games, network stacks (Amiga OS didn't have one at the time) and all sorts of other software.

> Please don't project. You say A in one sentence and not-A in the next. You don't even seem to agree with yourself.

It is called nuance. I am trying to convey an idea. You are trying to be right. The former is being an adult, the latter is childish.

> So then use a popular, supported one. Packages for RHEL/CentOS, Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, and even SuSe are nearly ubiquitous. If you freely choose to use obscure, forked-3-levels-deep Bob's Linux 2018, don't complain that there's no bespoke package for arbitrary software you want. That's silly.

I almost exclusively use Debian based (Ubuntu normally) or Redhat based (CentOS / Fedora). So again you are mis-representing what I was saying.

> Not out of context at all. You're blaming the platform instead of the app vendor.

Yes it was as I was clearly responding to what I quoted which was about hardware support not software support. This is clearly disingenuous.

As we are on the subject now. I am blaming the platform because there is massive amounts of fragmentation caused by lack of standardisation. You will have better luck herding cats. Compare that to something like Windows, iOS, Amiga OS, Android etc. Which have well documented APIs that are supported for years, so applications just tend to work between versions.

Also Apple and Microsoft don't throw away a whole desktop environment's code every 5 or 6 years. I remember the Gnome 2 -> 3 mess. I also remember the KDE 3 to 4 mess and I just use XFCE when forced to use a Linux machine now as they don't seem to lose their collective minds every few years.

I've been using Linux now for 15 years. I've given up with it. They could fix every complaint I have tomorrow and I won't give a damn, I am done with it.

> You're saying that an aerospace engineer can't, in a few seconds, click what appears to be a Start Menu-like menu in the Start Menu place, type "browser" into the box labeled "search", and find "Firefox Web Browser"? I don't believe you. If he can figure out how to make an aircraft fly, and use complicated fluid dynamics modeling software, he can figure out how to launch Firefox. Going from Windows to Plasma is no more complicated than going from Windows 7 to Windows 8 and 10--in fact, probably much simpler, considering the enormous UI changes Microsoft made. And it's claims like this that suggest it's you being disingenuous.

I sure he could if given the time. However the vast majority of people wanna get on with their life and not have to relearn where to find things in a UI. I have problems using Visual Studio on someone else machine running the same version of Visual Studio because I have the 2005 key bindings enabled, I can struggle along using the newer keybindings, but I am using the interface at about 30-40% of the speed I can normally use it at.

Comments like this demonstrates how out of touch Linux users are with the regular computer user. It reminds me of the time when Richard Stallman said on a mailing list he emailed web pages to himself using some cron job or something equally as ridiculous, then on the FSF page he writes a long lecture about the evils JavaScript Minification when he doesn't even use a web browser.

> Then you ought to be heaping criticism on Microsoft for Windows 8 and 10. How many times have I seen someone move from Windows 7 to 8/10 and say, "I can't use this UI, it's awful!" Instead you act as if Linux UIs are uniquely problematic.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whataboutery. :rollseyes: PLEASE!!

"There are more murders over there so the murders over here don't matter".

This is the last time I will respond to you. You have mis-represented me several times now and the number of fallacies present here is hurting my brain. Bye.

[explainplease]

> Even if it does work (most of the time) you get shitty problems like this:

> https://askubuntu.com/questions/732967/how-to-fix-non-workin....

> BTW that problem still exists (last time I checked was 18.04).

Another example of blaming the platform instead of the app vendor. I also suffer from this problem with Dropbox. It's entirely Dropbox's fault for being lazy, ripping out working code, and refusing to fix it despite users begging for years. Dropbox hasn't been a user-focused (at least, non-enterprise-user-focused) company for a long time now. I hope a good alternative becomes available soon.

> Also Apple and Microsoft don't throw away a whole desktop environment's code every 5 or 6 years. I remember the Gnome 2 -> 3 mess. I also remember the KDE 3 to 4 mess and I just use XFCE when forced to use a Linux machine now as they don't seem to lose their collective minds every few years.

I agree with you completely here. The KDE 3-to-4 transition was awful. GNOME is even worse. This is known as the CADT problem. This is why I advocate for software stewardship, doing what's best for the community and the users rather than reinventing the wheel over and over. The TDE project (forked from KDE 3.5) is very interesting and inspiring here.

> I sure he could if given the time. However the vast majority of people wanna get on with their life and not have to relearn where to find things in a UI. I have problems using Visual Studio on someone else machine running the same version of Visual Studio because I have the 2005 key bindings enabled, I can struggle along using the newer keybindings, but I am using the interface at about 30-40% of the speed I can normally use it at.

Of course, I don't like pointless churn either. But here again you're conflating problems: a new version of Visual Studio, made by the same company, and different desktop environments made by completely different groups. I don't think it's reasonable for you to expect KDE or GNOME or whoever to exactly reproduce Windows or any other UI. Even Microsoft isn't being consistent from one version to the next. So, again, you seem to be holding Linux (the wider Linux-based software world) to a different standard than proprietary software. That's not fair.

> Comments like this demonstrates how out of touch Linux users are with the regular computer user. It reminds me of the time when Richard Stallman said on a mailing list he emailed web pages to himself using some cron job or something equally as ridiculous, then on the FSF page he writes a long lecture about the evils JavaScript Minification when he doesn't even use a web browser.

RMS is quite eccentric, yes. I disagree with him on a lot of things. At the same time, I respect and appreciate what he has done for the FOSS world. I suspect that, without him, we wouldn't have as much "Free Software" as we do now.

I'm not so out-of-touch as you think. I'm well aware of how things work in the Windows-using world, and how non-techie users use computers and what they expect.

My point is that you can't have everything. You can't expect projects like GNOME or KDE to be like Windows just to satisfy potential former Windows users. No one's paying them (generally) to do so. And you seem to be holding FOSS projects to a certain standard, but allowing companies like Microsoft to violate it, just because they have more users. That's not reasonable.

> "There are more murders over there so the murders over here don't matter".

But don't you see: that's just what you're doing from the other direction. You complain about problem X on Linux, but ignore the same problem on Windows. You're being unreasonable.

> I've been using Linux now for 15 years. I've given up with it. They could fix every complaint I have tomorrow and I won't give a damn, I am done with it.

Since you seem very emotional about it, I guess it's not surprising that you're being unreasonable about it.

BTW, saw some of your comments about capitalism and Marxism. They were good. Keep speaking the truth (serious, not sarcastic).