[goldfeld]

Why is it a contradiction if startup culture has always been far-right (through the lens of Europe and South America et al)? It's a notch away from enforcing entrenched privilege with an army, unrest providing any such nudge. Didn't the homeless situation in SF ever tip these people off?

Besides, fascism grows by the day everywhere around the world, in rich and intelectualized societies no less (or moreso.) The 60's have called and want their ideals back. The saddest part? People who lived through that are getting beyond old any day now. And when their first-hand reminiscence has gone? It'll fall upon the 80's children and oh! how soon we forget. There are those who'll stand by Stallman, Wozniak and those who'll stand by Jobs, Gates, Bezos or Graham but I'm just being mean-spirited now. Well really, the first three off the latter group look starkly more like your run-of-the-mill fascist if creatively visualized not in the private but in the public sphere, being granted whimsical wishes by an unprincipled society.

It all boils down to MIT vs. GPL for us, doesn't it? Hacker, know thyself.

[Nasrudith]

Well economic vs social axises for one. Start up culture is 'move fast and break things' which is more an economic right of minimal regulation and seeing them as obstacles to be worked around. Silicon valley has been pretty anti-authoritarian historically - starting with the Traitorous Eight and continuing to the job hopping. A more authoritarian ethos would be sticking with the company for life instead of leaving because you are pissed off about starting early and wearing a tie.

Fascism is 'you have to know somebody or be approved or you get the stick for being troublesome to the ruling parties'. While entrenching power in individuals who could pull up the drawbridge and go more controlled with regulatory capture it would be fair to say it is not start up culture at that point, not as a No True Scottsman sense. This is not a dodge of any hypothetical guilt. The policies and ethos may have lead to that outcome but the phases are very distinct - there is a difference between a family passing on their trade and a caste system even if the first may eventually lead to the later.

[antidesitter]

> startup culture has always been far-right (through the lens of Europe and South America et al)

I’m South American, and I’m curious about what you mean by this.

[Gineton2]

I think he's referring to the scale of left-right in Europe and South America. Meaning the "center" in Europe and South America has usually been more to the left of the "center" in the United States. So a Bay Area minimal-regulation, minimal-government libertarian would be far-right relative to the average right-wing "liberal" in Europe/SoAmerica, who might be ok with more market regulation and a safety net for the poor.

[antidesitter]

"Far-right" refers to nationalism, fascism, and authoritarianism, not libertarianism.

Also, I wouldn't call the Bay Area "minimal-regulation".

[goldfeld]

Nationalism maybe, but then libertarianism and nationalism aren't necessarily any more right-leaning than the other, it isn't clear-cut. Outside the US bubble (including South American politics bending over to the american way of life--a foregone notion) libertarianism is seen as pretty extreme and elitist, if not very naive and hopeful instead. Actual fascism and authoritarianism are totalitarian, dystopic realities, maybe extreme right but even that would more often be conflated with far-right than with totalitarian regimes, which in a way are already beyond "normal" (parliamentary and such) politics and more like, you know, a dictatorship, or the seizing of power with disregard for the constitution.

[antidesitter]

> Outside the US bubble... libertarianism is seen as pretty extreme and elitist.

I doubt it. What's your evidence for this?

> South American politics bending over to the american way of life--a foregone notion

What does this mean?

[goldfeld]

Well, far-right thinking is on the rise as of late, so perhaps you're right. People outside the US are being deluded into thinking libertarianism will solve economic woes, among other harebrained solutions. Economic woes themselves have a way of messing with people's rationality.

I was just about to edit that comment to make it more explicit, that the american way of life is the foregone notion, not bending over to the US. People keep bending over to the US, the right-wing of South America has mostly always done that, and what it means is that they think the American Way of doing politics brings prosperity and a good economy. And what I mean by foregone notion is that the current good economy of the US is an illusion. The society is sick and degrading. The economy keeps going strong, apparently. But it can't last, because a weak society can't make an economy strong, disillusioned young people can't keep creating extraordinary value for much longer (5, 10 years?) The economy is still good because of inertia, but something is broken in good old America, what used to work in the golden age of the past century isn't holding up well behind the stages, even if the show appears to go on for now.