[anon84598]

This is interesting, but I feel like it isn't as thorough as I would like. Men and women speak differently in ways that can't be masked by voice modulation and I suspect that phrasing, choice of vocabulary, intonation etc. also play a role in how people are perceived. My hypothesis would be that men are more familiar with how men speak, so if a woman also spoke like that, they would see an improvement. I'm not saying my prediction would definitely be correct, but I think it is an obvious one to consider and this post didn't attempt to address it.

[DoreenMichele]

One day recently, my oldest commented on his observations that when he picks up food at the deli for us, he and other men say things like "Give me half a pound of potatoes." Women typically say things like "Can I have..." They sound like they are asking permission to eat even though they are a paying customer.

My experience is that other people are weirded out when I talk in an empowered fashion like a man. Some people give me push back over that because sexism is alive and well. So it isn't a slam dunk cure for a woman to learn manly phrasing.

But, yes, I think you are correct that men and women typically phrase things differently, so masking the voice is insufficient.

[klipt]

I'm a dude and usually say "Can I please have..." but I'm from a Commonwealth country and I think there's a tendency for British/Commonwealth people to be less brash than Americans.

[jboles]

Yeah. "Give me ..." without even "please" just sounds rude.

[AlwaysRock]

Not necessarily...

"What will ya have?" "Yeah give me a half pound of the turkey that's on special."

Perfectly appropriate conversation. It's a transactional conversation. Pleasantry are nice but the absence of them doesn't mean one is being rude.

[_Wintermute]

Subtle cultural differences, but that would still sound rude to me.

[Cthulhu_]

Well the question was asked quite bluntly (I'm not going to call it rude, more err, direct, colloquial?)

[Cthulhu_]

Can confirm. I'm Dutch, my GF is British. In Dutch, "Can I have x" is considered polite, but as it turns out it's quite rude in English, it needs a "please" somewhere.

[DoreenMichele]

Remarking on possible cultural differences between countries is in no way a rebuttal of the actual point. A rebuttal of the actual point would be "In my country, men and woman both speak the same" not "I see myself as more polite than you because of the cultural norms for my country being different from the cultural norms for your country."

[stephen_g]

I'm also from a Commonwealth country, and I've never detected a significant difference between the way people buy things at shops or order at restaurants.

Here (Australia) it's just rude people that say "Give me ..." and polite people who say "Can I please have ..." etc. - no clear split between male and female.

That's not to say your point is necessarily wrong, just that at least that particular example is highly region-specific.

[DoreenMichele]

A different example that hopefully will not result in some tangent about how rude Americans are or some nonsense:

I was a homemaker and mom for years. My sister had a serious career and delayed having a baby. When I was younger, I was sometimes weirded out by her framing. When I repeated things she said to other people, sometimes people actually remarked that she "spoke like a man" or similar.

I think there are differences in how men and women typically express themselves. Some of this may be rooted in different experiences that aren't per se gender specific -- ie men are more likely to be in charge and being in charge shapes language. Then men being in charge means men are more likely to emulate "boss" language. It becomes masculine by association.

But I think that a difference does exist in the aggregate.

[daenz]

My experience has been that people are weirded when someone talks from a non-natural perspective. I've met many women who talk naturally in a confident and assertive way, and it doesn't feel like they're forcing it, or telling themselves "I'm going to try to sound like an empowered man when I say this." It just seems to fit holistically in the situation. I personally get push back when I try to sound more confident than I actually am on an issue, vs when I actually am very confident on an issue. People seem to be good detectors of subtle cues.

So I guess my point is, are you only noticing it when you are testing for it?

[DoreenMichele]

That sentence could probably use some sort of proviso. I don't mean all people, all the time and I certainly am not testing for anything. I'm just living my life and periodically run into push back over things I had no idea would get some kind of reaction when I did them.

I had a corporate job for 5.25 years. My department had around 500 people in it. I routinely sat up front in large meetings, in part because I have terrible eyesight. One day, the highest ranked woman in my department said to the guy who was her only equal in rank "Look at Doreen, sitting up front."

I don't sit up front to signal aggressive type A personality stuff or ambition or whatever, but other people interpret it that way.

I went to GIS Summer School, an 8 week program that covered a normally year long certificate. It's a two thirds male field and most classes were two thirds male. The last week of this program, I realized that I was the only woman who routinely sat up front. Most women sat in the last two rows of class.

I'm routinely interpreted as highly aggressive and pushy for doing things that are totally normal and completely unremarkable when men do them. It's fine if a guy does it. It's normal for men to sit up front. No one accuses them of anything for not hiding themselves away in the back row seats. But it gets a fair amount of attention for me to sit up front, and not in a good way.

This was viewed by the highest ranked woman in my department as noteworthy and she said it in front of a bunch of people loud enough for me and everyone else there to hear. She didn't discuss it with her equal privately nor comment on it to me privately. You could interpret that as a rebuke, like "how dare she do that!"

You could also interpret it as a shocked reaction by a woman who is presumably a great deal more empowered than most people regardless of gender, yet could not imagine doing anything as daring as sitting up front, apparently. She also got very defensive when I said my sons had taken over the housework and cooking. Her husband followed her from another state so she could take the job, but she still did most of the women's work at home. Most of my female colleagues were shocked that my sons took over the housework and cooking at home after I went from homemaker to primary breadwinner.

[horsawlarway]

Can I suggest another possible interpretation?

People tend to remember the times they're mentioned in that manner, but forget/overlook the times it happens to other people.

I can't tell you if those situations were sexist or not, but I can tell you that I'm a man, and I've had a large number of experiences that absolutely match your descriptions.

I've been told the tone of my voice was commandeering in a fairly civil meeting, I've had it remarked on about how many questions I ask, I've gotten plenty of pushback when I ask folks to do things they don't want to do.

Those things are basically a normal part of office politics. Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that your interaction there sounds fairly unremarkable to me, and likely stuck with you because it was about you.

Just like the offhand remark about being commandeering didn't matter to anyone else, but I sure as hell remembered it.

[DoreenMichele]

No one else in GIS school actually remarked upon my choice of seating. I was just struck one day by the fact that most other women sat as far in the back as possible most of the time. One or two women floated around a bit, sometimes up front and sometimes in the back.

It struck me that the female VIP said something in part because it was a "Pink Collar Ghetto" department in a company with an excellent track record for diversity and inclusion. When I got the job, the department head of my department was a woman. She retired shortly after I came on board and was replaced by a man. The two second in command positions were held by one man and one woman. When the woman retired, she was replaced by another woman.

So this was the last place I expected anyone to act like there was something noteworthy about me sitting up front. It was a female majority department with lots of women managers and other women in high ranking positions and you would think this would be one place where no one would think anything at all about a woman sitting in the front. Yet, here was this VIP woman remarking on it in front of everyone.

I gave up my car while working there. My apartment was about a 7 minute drive from work. It was about an hour walk. There were about 2000 people in the building I worked in. I rarely walked for more than 10 minutes before someone offered me a ride.

This resulted in a de facto informal survey where I would make conversation with the person who had picked me up and I would talk about having two special needs sons who had never held paid jobs and blah blah blah and they would express pity for me "Oh, you poor thing, you walked to work and worked all day to support the family and now you have to go home and cook dinner." and I would go "Um, no. I will peel and chop vegetables and go in the bath. When I get out the bath, dinner will be served to me. My oldest son does the cooking and dinner has already been started." And they would dramatically change their tune, from pity to envy.

This was a Fortune 200 company for part of the time I worked there and a Fortune 500 company the entire time I worked there. It was the largest civilian (non military) employer in the city at the time I was there. When I made small talk at eateries and people asked me where I worked, just telling them the name of my employer basically got oohs and aahs. Some of my coworkers had spent years trying to qualify for a job at the company at all.

So this is a sampling of arguably some of the best, brightest and most empowered women in the world who are not outright nobility or wealthy celebrities, who just have a job. And the vast majority of them still did most or all of the "women's work" at home. The fact that I didn't was quite unexpected and often met with shock and sometimes a lot of defensiveness.

I mean, not to dismiss your point. I often find it valuable when guys on HN say "Yeah, they do that to me too." That's often been enormously helpful to me. But, given the larger context, I'm pretty confident that this specific incident -- this remark by this high ranking woman -- was an expression of broader cultural expectations and sexism.

[blackstrips]

As a guy I almost always say “Can I have ...” because there is no guarantee they can fulfill the request. Phrasing it as a question seems more appropriate somehow.

[bambataa]

Maybe "may I have" is more appropriate then. However, this veers into the realm of teachers who respond to "can I go to the toilet?" with "I don't know, can you?".

[belorn]

After the 2016 election there was a bunch of articles exploring the different debates, and one theater group tested the idea of replaying one debate but reversing the genders. Every gesture and sentence copied by two actors. In that singular case the audience reported to not been weirded out by the female actor. It would be interesting if a more scientific study were done where recorded situations such as interviews are replayed with actors that gender reverse the scene while keeping wordings and body language intact, as it seems to conflict with the perception about what reaction people have when men and women use phrases and body language that of the opposite gender.

[travisoneill1]

Thorough enough to make the person on the other side of the phone think they were talking to the intended gender. The point of the experiment is to control for gender, not other factors like style of speech. That would need a separate test.