[elicash]

On the latter, if you don't believe we are a democracy, then I want to see your plan for turning us into one. If you're going to make that claim, you better be willing to put in the work given what others have sacrificed for our right to vote.

[kotajacob]

I do not need to have that opinion to understand that it exists. Personally I do vote and at least somewhat believe there is a democracy here in the states (especially compared to many other places currently in the world), but I urge you to try and understand why some may not be so convinced.

Probably a big part of it is lack of a good education. That combined with a few facts such as our usage of electronic voting machines having clear security exploits. These exploits are often found right after each election and the fact that the whole process isn't publicly audited is alone enough to raise suspicion. Even if they magically have never been exploited I'm sure many people believe the usage of gerrymandering, corporate campaign donations, lack of voting rights for the previously incarcerated, and the electoral college lead to a situation in which the realpolitik of America is different than what we're led to believe.

Again I personally do believe we have a somewhat real and fair democracy. However there is much that can be done to improve the legitimacy and the projected legitimacy. Yelling at people who choose not to vote is not a solution. My personal suggestions would be to switch to a direct voting system in which each person has an equal vote. Consider switching to approval voting to allow for a more accurate representation of the peoples wants and allow for 3rd (or 4th or 5th...) party candidates to have a more serious chance. Paper Ballots with a more auditable process.

You may not agree with my personal suggestions. That's not the point though. The point is that people choosing to not vote is not a problem that can be solved by being angry at said people. Instead we should find out their complaints and see if there is a way to make the validity of our democracy more obvious.

[elicash]

I think you may have misread what I wrote.

I'm not arguing that we are or aren't a democracy, or saying that view is valid or invalid. I'm simply saying that if someone thinks that we're not a democracy, then they have a moral obligation to try to do something about it.

> My personal suggestions...

Personal suggestions are pointless without action. If that action isn't voting for someone, then all I'm saying is tell me what actions you're going to take instead?

I find it obnoxious that while some of us are doing the HARD WORK for free that others complain from the sidelines. Not speaking to you specifically, but if someone thinks voting is pointless then do SOMETHING that isn't. Don't leave it to other people to do the work.

[kotajacob]

I see. However I disagree that they have a moral obligation to do something about it. You're setting up a bit of a false scenario. You said "if you don't believe we are a democracy, then I want to see your plan for turning us into one." That assumes those people all want some sort of change into a democracy and that it would be morally irresponsible for them to want something other than democracy, such as for example the status quo. Also not everyone thinks democracy is the proper end goal.

You're also assuming that because someone does not vote they are also not doing anything they believe will better their situation in regards to the government they live under. They very well may be doing _exactly_ what they think will help improve their governmental situation.