[jernfrost]

I am a big Tesla fan but if this is true and does not improve shortly, then screw this company.

I’ve dreamt of buying a Tesla but I could not ethically rationalize that to myself if this article is true.

It also shows the problem of measuring companies by specific metrics. It sounds like good old “juking the stats” (the wire).

It gives the impression that things actually end up worse because of how injuries are measured.

[robertAngst]

I was a big Tesla fan until-

>A Tesla recruiter called me, high pressure tried to get me to move to California, ending in- "So you don't want to do anything important with your life?"

>Elon's marketing team spam reddit and manip upvotes. This was my first wakeup call that we were being tricked

>That Tesla =/= getting to Mars in 2023.

>The Chevy Bolt was car of the year. Tesla's will be unreliable for ~10 years until they work out design related issues. (This is unavoidable for every new car company)

>The horrid conditions of employees, seems like we are taking a step back in employee conditions in favor of 'progress'.

>Manipulation of news, numbers, etc... make the company seem unethical.

I still have Elon as my wallpaper, with a motivation phrase telling me to "Get to work". But I've sobered up, he was a cult of personality.

[driverdan]

You forgot

* They track everything about the vehicles, including GPS. You have no privacy when driving in a Tesla.

* The cars have extensive DRM.

* Automatic remote updates that can, and sometimes do, brick the car.

[bambax]

And when the car kills you, they pick and choose some data to make public, to try to show it was in fact your fault. No thanks.

[RivieraKid]

Yep and that list could be much longer. I was a Tesla fan a year ago. Now I think Elon deserves to go bankrupt, even though I think this company understands and cares about UX more than any of their major competitors.

[loceng]

I'd hope that "So you don't want to do anything important with your life?" wasn't in a script, and was an individual recruiter being a manipulative asshole - and once this was found out about by management (and hopefully they investigated and could find out who said it) the recruiter was then told to not say such thing again - and fired if they did.

I can't really reply to anything else you posted, there's reasonable counter-points to all of it. You shouldn't blindly trust any one source of course, and excitement/emotion for someone or an organization doing something good can prevent use from critical thinking. At the same time, it's important to understand what it means for a company to be the most shorted stock in history - and the amount of effort, and financial gain, that will come to people purposely trying to put down Tesla et al.

Good can come from this process if everyone involved is being reasonable. Is it good that someone who asked for an ambulance to go to the hospital, instead after an assessment by an onsite doctor, were said to take a Lyft? It clearly wasn't life threatening in that doctor's eyes to require the life-stabilizing ability/necessity of an ambulance - I suppose that person sharing their story might not be talking to us then today. Likewise, is the issue that Tesla is purposefully trying to avoid "an ambulance being called" to avoid a log in OSHA records? I doubt it, however this does highlight that the processes and requirements for OSHA likely need to be updated: so that if there are on-site doctors who do an assessment, then that also gets into the log. I imagine it's more likely an incomplete/inadequate process of reporting because how many work places have on-site doctors 24/7? Not very many I'm guessing.

[camjohnson26]

In my opinion they’re the most shorted stock in history because their fundamentals don’t justify their huge valuation. Elon Musk’s cult of personality has encouraged investors to over-value the company in spite of some severe problems.

[loceng]

I remember you recently commenting trying to argue that Elon Musk has the same values as Donald Trump when it comes to the truth, so I'm going not going to trust your judgement here.

The biggest short in history aligns well with many people not having the critical thinking ability to understand all of the facets to what Elon is doing and has already done - if you look at the whole ecosystem, which I won't write out to argue for here - though I have in the past in comments. Many people invest on short-term trends and don't have the ability to actually understand from founding principles; e.g. it's why they're building a Gigafactory for batteries, to knock the cost of battery production down by 50% - and unless competitors all start trying to do the same, they're going to have higher battery costs - and so can't compete as strongly on price as Tesla can, etc.

[robertAngst]

>I can't really reply to anything else you posted, there's reasonable counter-points to all of it.

The reason these things have happened is due to the insane pressure from upper management.

Sure they can fire the guy who tried recruiting me, but that person was likely under insane pressure to get new bodies to replace the many people who left Tesla.

There is a reason these things are happening.

[dagss]

The clothing industry (or pretty much any low cost country manufacturing) is much much much worse than what is described here.

Ubfortunately, people buy products produced by effectively torturing workers all the time.

That doesn't in any way justify what Tesla is doing of course. Just pointing out that this is "peanuts" compared to other products that people do not tend to boycott.

Wish there was a good solution. I try to buy fairtrade-marked goods when I can but the selection is limited as most people seem to not care.

For cars, there is no measurement or guarantee that other brands are better that is easily available to me, especially if you include Asian subcontractors / parts producers.

[loceng]

Here's a response horseRad posted that comes from Tesla's side - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18389796 - and that is from https://electrek.co/2018/11/06/tesla-fremont-factory-clinic-...

[bjl]

That statement isn't exactly compelling. It just resorts to ad hominem attacks in an attempt to discredit a minor piece of the article, while deflecting/ignoring the major claims (like the worker with a crushed spine who was denied an ambulance because it would've shown up on OSHA logs).

Also, this report was done by one of the most respectable investigative news organisations in the world. Its hard to see how the PR wing of a corporation that just settled with the SEC for fraud could be considered more trustworthy.

[loceng]

I was referencing the response from their doctor, where they have 24/7 doctors at their factory.

I'm not sure if this answer is in anything posted, however: 1) is that claim of someone with a "crushed spine denied an ambulance" proven, and 2) is "because it would've shown up on OSHA logs" proven as Tesla's reasoning, or just conjecture and/or speculation?

Likewise, why aren't people addressing that maybe an ambulance being called as the triggering something added to OSHA logs is incomplete or badly designed - and because Tesla has doctors on staff/on-site 24/7 for workers to go to first, maybe a visit to doctors should actually be the trigger adding the event to logs? Maybe the process is broken, but requiring an ambulance be called for a sprained wrist - if they trained doctors on staff to access the situation isn't reasonable, it certainly is an emotional reaction they're triggering in people though.

"Also, this report was done by one of the most respectable investigative news organisations in the world."

I've never heard of them and likewise - is this specific journalist (and perhaps the editor) known and associated with any awards the journal received?

[bjl]

> I'm not sure if this answer is in anything posted, however: 1) is that claim of someone with a "crushed spine denied an ambulance" proven, and 2) is "because it would've shown up on OSHA logs" proven as Tesla's reasoning, or just conjecture and/or speculation?

1) The source is named, and to be included in the article would've likely provided medical records backing up his assertions. Not to mention the fact that Tesla (which has previously demonstrated its willingness to go the media to try and discredit former employees) has not denied his claims.

2) There are multiple sources in the article that mention being taught by lawyers how to deny care in a way that avoids legal requirements to log incidents.

> I've never heard of them and likewise

That says more about you than the source, Reveal has broken a number of extremely important stories and won many awards for doing so.

> is this specific journalist (and perhaps the editor) known and associated with any awards the journal received?

You could've just clicked on the author's bio, but yes. "His reporting with a partner and CNN exposed rampant fraud in California's drug rehab system for the poor, winning an Investigative Reporters and Editors Award."