[mswift42]

The first time I heard of Brave, I thought Oh cool, a privacy focused, chromium based browser. But I must say I'm honestly appalled by its parasitic business model.

Content creators are strong armed into becoming verified publishers, while users have to trust Brave that their data is handled properly and carefully.

[arjbah]

What're you talking about? Their content creator program is completely voluntary, and their business model (and the Basic Attention Token) is designed to serve content creators, and is not driven by ads or data collection (like Chrome is).

Brave is the only hope I see for a strictly "privacy-by-default" browser, which is not powered by an ad-based business model. Brendan Eich isn't a dumbell, he knows what is wrong with broswer-based privacy and what needs fixing.

PS: I use Brave on Android and the experience has been better than Chrome.

[user812]

Brave has multiple layers to actually help content-creators. It is beyond me how anyone can frame it in the opposite direction.

Layer 1: Blocking everything that is not helpful for the user (i.e. being a browser that is a user-agent first and foremost), thus doing essentially the same as content-blocking extensions or other content-blocking browsers (Opera mini, UC)

In this way, there is nothing to be outraged about, since this is a reaction to a complete lack of respect for human dignity and the state of the web on the side of the publishers. The only thing that is parasitic are the ad-networks that pray on vulnerable people. It is easy to overlook that for years browsers have ignored the user so that many gullible people nowadays think that this is how things are supposed to be, but just like ad-tech, users can lobby against the state of things with chosing their software.

Layer 2: Allowing privacy-friendly ads, as opt-in, to help publishers get money and get free from the parasitic ad-networks at the same time

Layer 3: A future-proof patreon like payment network to help publishers survive the ad-backlash, and connect readers and publishers on a new, voluntary, respectful level while also being privacy-friendly.

Honestly I can't see how anything of this is problematic for anyone, except for Brave's rivals (Google, Facebook, Criteo, etc.)

[annywhey]

I believe most of the FUD is, in fact, coming from those rivals.

Brave proposes cutting out a bunch of middlemen through the token market and making the browser something like an anticheat system: opt in and it does its best to serve quality ads while preventing click fraud.

There are a lot of details in the execution that matter to make this competitive, but the basic idea resolves many of the current conflicts of interest that make adtech a miserable market.

[goldfeld]

It's astounding how many willing employees Google has to comment voluntarily, out of their own awe of the mothership, in favor of anything Alphabet does. They're so many, it's like machine learning, Google barely has to try or know what's going on.

I always have to remind myself how poisoned the well of tech commentary has become with behemoths like FB, GOOG, AMZN.

[wild_preference]

    > is not driven by ads 

One entity pays BAT and the other gets paid BAT to watch ads.

Pretty dishonest to say "not driven by ads."

[BrendanEich]

We don't even have ads out of user trials or paying yet, so he was not dishonest. Ads are opt-in, we have to win users over to get any revenue share to us -- and it's always <= what the user gets.

Note how we take a much smaller (Patreon sized) 5% off the anonized contribution flow, so if we had enough ad-averse users contributing, we'd be ok just on that basis. It's not all about ads, but no one can count out ads right now -- $100B gross spend in US this year on digital advertising!

[user812]

Edit: Sorry for not following the rules

[michaelt]

  Honestly I can't see how anything of
  this is problematic for anyone

Perhaps they heard about Brave blocking ads and... replacing them with different ads [1] that Brave makes money from.

That pretty much means the ads-are-cancer crowd don't like them, and the adblockers-are-theft crowd don't like them either.

[1] https://www.computerworld.com/article/3284076/web-browsers/b... https://www.wired.com/2016/04/brave-software-publishers-resp...

[joshuamorton]

While I "technically" have a conflict of interest, when brave launched I had some concerns about how and when creators were paid, and the responses amounted to brave stealing from them unless they signed up.

Unlike patreon (or Google contributor), if the page doesn't sign up, brave still replaces the ads, but they end up keeping the money.

In those cases, their business model is much closer to a Comcast than an uBlock, and it certainly appears like strong arming creators/sites into joining, or forcing them to forgo revenue and donate it to the browser. If you can't see why that would be upsetting to content creators, idk.

[gingerlime]

That's a very interesting point.

I think there are some subtle, but important, differences though.

Brave users by default block all ads. So those users won't see the ads on content creators sites anyway. Content creators shouldn't feel outraged towards those more than they can feel outraged about any other ad-blocking users.

Some of those Brave users might opt-in for ads that are promised not to compromise their privacy.

So I totally understand that some creators might feel strong-armed if they already use ads. But they shouldn't feel any worse than when faced with ad-blocking users. They do have the chance to opt-in and rely on privacy-respecting ads and get some revenue that they otherwise wouldn't get.

I guess if there was an alternative ad model that was less intrusive, and content creators relied on it, they might have a much stronger reason to be upset. I'm not aware of many creators that use privacy-friendly ads, and it seems like Brave is at least attempting to create this model?

No affiliation with Brave whatsoever. Only found out about it a couple of weeks ago.

[joshuamorton]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15730294

See this comment and the surrounding chain.

Assuming I'm a creator, the ussue is that brave is monetizing my content and I get nothing unless I opt in to brave, instead of the system that I already have set up to monetize myself.

Ad blockers don't make money by replacing the ads. Brave does. That's why it's more similar to an isp hijacking ads than ad blocking, it's just happening in the browser instead of in the network.

[gingerlime]

Brave isn't making money if its users choose to block ads.

Users now have the choice to make money from opting-in to ads. But only ads that protect their privacy. Brave enables this, and takes a smaller cut than the user.

Sites choosing to monetize themselves are doing so at the expense of the user, whose privacy is compromised in the process.

I don't think Brave or the User is hijacking things here more than you can say that monetizing sites are hijacking user privacy.

Monetizing sites don't give the user the option to pay for content via other means, or ads that protect their privacy (or even the awareness of what transaction takes place). At least Brave and its users are giving sites the option to get revenue here (revenue that otherwise would be lost if users opt for ad-blocking instead).

N.B. Looking at [0], Brendan Eich stated that "We don't replace ads on publisher sites without that publisher as partner; they get 70% of the gross revenue, user gets 15%.".

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18155869

[mswift42]

What happens to the small sites that don't track users, but display some ads to keep the servers running? Hope that they get "rewarded with BAT's accordingly to the users attention" ?

Btw, I'm guessing you are a Brave employee, that many Buzzwords in one comment would otherwise be quite astonishing, how does Brave guarantee a users privacy? I assume brave "phones home" in order to replace ads with ads Brave gets compensated for.

Also, I read a lot about a transparent way funds are distributed among publishers, where is the code?

[user812]

I don't havy any connection to Brave.

I just see the potential, and want Brave to succeed.

> "What happens to the small sites that don't track users, but display some ads to keep the servers running? Hope that they get "rewarded with BAT's accordingly to the users attention" ?"

What happens to them nowadays, now that most users block ads? They struggle, and they will continue struggling. Brave won't change any of that.

PS: I guess I should ask Brave to hire me for PR

[wild_preference]

> They should hire me

The brilliance of creating a utility token like BAT is so that the creator (Brave) can get rich off speculation, and a horde of people will defend the creator online because they have a couple bucks invested.

It's one of the most insufferable parts of anything to do with cryptocurrency and it's why it's hard to have honest discussion.

I certainly don't think it's necessary nor useful to try and label you as a shill. It's just that BAT is one of the reasons why it's hard to take Brave seriously, and it's why you shouldn't be so dismissive of people who raise issues with Brave much less call them shills of ad-tech or rival browsers (as you did).

[skinnymuch]

Can you provide citation to most users blocking ads? Also note that many people browse on mobile.

[zimbatm]

Layer 3 implies that there is some system that tracks user to reward content creator according. How is this not a tracking system?

Without knowing the implementation details it looks like Brave is (1) removing all the competition, (2) except the ones that play nice, (3) force content creators to buy into their system.

I think it's good that they are trying to find a solution for content creators to monetize their content. Instead on making suppositions on the OP, why not address those points? Why is using Brave not like building the tracking even further into the browser?

[user812]

At least go to brave.com and read the FAQ. The tracking is anonymized.

Of course Brave is removing the competition within their own product, that's how it usually works in a free market.

[tptacek]

You can assume whatever you want, but arguing that people who disagree with you have ties to the ad-tech business is explicitly prohibited by the site guidelines.

[giancarlostoro]

Why I never use it. I will always stick to Firefox. Firefox has yet to irritate me. A few plugins here or there is not as awful as most of what Google does.

Besides if I REALLY wanted to I could run one of the GPL forks of Firefox. They may be dated after a while but they work usually.

Edit: I meant to say GNU forks like IceWeasel and GNU IceCat which are licensed as GPL usually. There's other forks too.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_software_rebranded_by_...

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_IceCat

[sleavey]

Firefox isn't GPL?

[glibgil]

Why would there be a Mozilla Public License if not to be used for Firefox?

[sleavey]

I see. Are there any major differences in the two licences? I'm interested why the OP specifically mentioned GPL forks of Firefox.

[giancarlostoro]

It's GPL compatible, and I wrote GPL instead of GNU. There's IceWeasel which is a Debian fork of Firefox to debrand it from all the Firefox trademarks and logos.

See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_IceCat

They basically use scripts that build IceCat apparently from the original source code. I'm guessing they diff against FireFox.

[hliyan]

I don't know much about this browser, but I'm finding it strange that multiple accounts are describing it using the same adjective ("parasitic") without actually explaining what it does.

[mswift42]

Brave's business model is to replace a web site's ads for which the web site gets compensated for, with ads brave gets compensated for.

[jonathansampson]

That is misleading.

Brave blocks third-party ads and trackers (which are not only harmful to users, but often make up more than 50% of all data loaded).

Brave is testing an optional digital advertising model which operates via local (on the user's device) machine-learning to match ads. If a user opts into this component, they will earn up to 70% of the ad revenue.

In the future we will offer publishers (websites) the ability to partner, permitting Brave to display ads on their pages. In this arrangement, publishers will receive 70% of the ad-revenue (far better deal than what most see today), and users will receive 15% for their attention.

In either model, the user must first consent to see ads.

Sampson Developer Brave Software

[gruez]

>That is misleading.

I'm not sure how that post is misleading. And your responses are either evasive or does not contradict what is originally being claimed.

>Brave blocks third-party ads and trackers (which are not only harmful to users, but often make up more than 50% of all data loaded).

Considering "replacing" ads involve removing the original ones, I'm not sure how this this disproves mswift42's post

>Brave is testing an optional digital advertising model which operates via local (on the user's device) machine-learning to match ads. If a user opts into this component, they will earn up to 70% of the ad revenue.

>In the future we will offer publishers (websites) the ability to partner, permitting Brave to display ads on their pages. In this arrangement, publishers will receive 70% of the ad-revenue (far better deal than what most see today), and users will receive 15% for their attention.

There's still 30% and 15% left, respectively in those examples. Is brave taking any % of that? if so, they're making money off of replaced ads.

>In either model, the user must first consent to see ads.

I fail to see how consent is relevant to a post about what Brave's business model is, especially one that's making a statement without any moral judgement.

[spooneybarger]

I have to trust every browser making to do the right thing with my data. Often, they don't.

What's the alternative to Brave's model? I personally will keep using Firefox with an adblocker and publishers will get nothing.

[xrd]

https://blog.teddyhyde.com/2017/10/11/take-back-your-blog-ju...

[raitucarp]

"parasitic business model."

Can you elaborate more?

[spooneybarger]

Brave has a really good built-in adblocker. You can join a brave program that users can take part in as well to run some ads on approved sites.

That's the short version.

It's pitched as a way to allow people like me who won't browse without an adblocker a way to contribute to sites we like.

[runn1ng]

They have some token thing where you can pay to the website directly through BLOCKCHAIN (!!!!). Otherwise it just blocks all ads to all the websites.

They have their own token (with ICO and all that) and you can pay websites through that. I am quite sceptical about that.

[jonathansampson]

Your first comment is a bit misleading; Brave blocks third-party ads and trackers by default. You don't have to give BAT to anybody for this functionality—it's our baseline.

We block third-party ads and trackers because they have been leverage to spread malware, inject crypto-mining scripts into pages, push malicious extension onto unsuspecting users, and more. Not to mention, the entire model of unannounced tracking is in stark contrast to GDPR and relevant legislation.

The user ought to be sovereign over their machine, their experience, and their data. That is what Brave believes.

We understand that blocking ads and trackers will result in some impact to many websites. It is for this reason we created the User Growth Pool during our token sale, setting aside 300M Basic Attention Tokens.

For several months we have been channeling the UGP funds into the wallets of content creators. We do this via regular, monthly grants to users (which wind up going to their top sites), referral links which pay $5 in BAT for every user you bring to the Brave platform, contests (such as our 100K BAT giveaway), and more.

We understand that has helpful as the UGP is, it won't be there forever. As such, the web needs to be sustained by some other means. This is why we're developing Brave Ads.

Brave Ads is a completely-opt-in digital advertising model which doesn't leak private data, doesn't reward fraudsters and scammers, and doesn't put Brave in any position to abuse your trust as a user.

With Brave Ads, consenting users will benefit from local (on your device) machine-learning, which uses it's knowledge of the user to select the best ads to display. The ML operates off of local data, meaning nothing is sent out to third parties, and Brave isn't collecting personal information about you.

If the user consents to seeing ads, they will also collect up to 70% of the ad revenue. Users will finally get paid for their attention; they've had their attention stolen from them for far too long.

As I stated earlier though, all of this is optional. If you choose not to participate in Brave Ads, you still get a solid ad-and-tracker blocker in Brave. And you still get the option to directly support your favorite content creators out of your own pocket.

[Moto7451]

I believe this is what the poster is referencing. https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2018/06/25/brave-browser-st...

[strainer]

Disappointed this comment was not flagged for declaring disgust with the product on top of a single sentence characterization of its business model.

[googletron]

works on Google Chrome