[jen729w]

I’m not “blinded by [my] unwavering loyalty to the brand” but the suggestion that this sort of thing is going to send me over to Windows or Linux is ridiculous.

I’m a normal guy who works in IT and does pretty much everything with my MBP. Work (Citrix, email, Office), play (Logic, Lightroom), development (Sublime, Chrome, the Terminal) ... I mean come on.

For my “loyalty” to be considered “unwavering” there would have to be a legitimate alternative that does just what Apple does, but lets me repair my own [incredibly powerful, thin, built-like-a-slab-of-rock, trivial to keep up-to-date] laptop. That laptop would have to seamlessly sync my phone and watch, there would have to be superb Bluetooth in-ear wireless headphones available for this ecosystem ... it goes on and on. I’m all-in on the Apple ecosystem for a damned good reason and, while I may not love this approach to repairs, that does not make me an unwavering loyalist.

Don’t tell me that I can get this all with Linux and a Dell. You know I can’t.

[busterarm]

I'm mostly in the same boat as you, but I've had consistently poor experiences with MBPs and the MacOS ecosystem in general since roughly 2013.

At the beginning of this year I was in the market for a new personal laptop -- even though I got to keep a top end new MBP from my last job, I couldn't consider it reliable (and it hasn't been) so I got a ThinkPad X270. It ended up being a fantastic decision and I've never been happier with a laptop.

I switched my workstation at my job over to Arch Linux this week after not having run desktop Linux in roughly 10 years and the experience is _miles_ better already.

I'll continue to use iOS devices, but I am done with MacOS and Mac hardware forever.

[busterarm]

In case anyone asks: XMonad

[michaelmrose]

Did you already use haskell?

[busterarm]

Never. I had a vague, casual familiarity with the syntax and got together a working configuration for my monitor setup and preferences in 20 minutes though.

[bigbugbag]

> apple-only, apple-only, apple user lock-in, apple walled garden, apple. > don't tell me I can do this with something else than apple.

Of you cannot play windows game on your linux box and you cannot get the same experience you have in the walled garden outside of it unless you change and adapt you devices.

I have a client with a Linux ecosystem and a single iphone, apple does not provide itunes for linux so making backup and generally dealing with the iphone required buying a second hand windows laptop specifically to deal with this because with each update of the iphone OS apple breaks previous compatibility with linux that had been added by enthusiasts.

I have a thinkpad running linux, it is cheaper, more powerful, thin (though this is not important), trivial to keep up-to-date, repairable, serviceable on site. I've set up a seamless sync for my computerphone which I use exclusively for phone calls, SMS and as a clock (no need for a gadget computerwatch that cannot even tell what time it is for 24h straight), lastly I do not use wireless headphones but I could if I wanted to.

I'm out of the apple prison-system for a damned good reason too, it's overhyped, very expensive, is often not compatible with hardware outside it (could it be a reason you're all in on the apple walled garden ?), does not allow me to do what I choose, engage in huge amount of tax evasion with significant social consequences, locks user in, relies on free software makes huge profit but doesn't donate back and it goes on and on.

What you describes here is nothing else than the existence of an impenetrable wall designed and built by apple to keep control and increase their profit, you choose to live inside the wall and I choose to live outside.

We, outsiders, like to think people choosing to live inside the wall do so because they are blinded not because they are evil as this is easier on us than riskig losing faith in humanity.

[lotsofpulp]

Basically everyone in my family used to call me for tech support (parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins), but in the past 3 years or so, I’ve convinced everyone to iPhones and iPads and MacBook Airs, they have have basically zero tech support calls to me. Everything just works as long as they keep track of their Apple ID and iCloud login. There is definitely value to not spending any time or brain cycles worrying about how to do something, and having everything integrated and always working.

With Windows, it’s always update this, restart that, where is this menu option, drivers? It’s not for people who don’t want to spend their time figuring that stuff out. Plus Microsoft is not as trustworthy of a brand.

[bigbugbag]

Fun thing, I was in the exact same situation so I told them I would only provide support if they switched to Linux (no need to buy new hardware) and got similar results: support call lowered dramatically to almost none (except when mozilla forces stupid changes on users in firefox, solved by dropping firefox for waterfox, or when systemd breaks something that work perfectly before update).

99% of their needs are covered for a total cost of 0, only remaining pita is the odd iphone owned by teen cousin wanting to boast social status and missing itunes so he bought a macbook and has a variety of issues with it.

[pjmlp]

With Portuguese salaries it is cheaper to spend the difference sending the family members to our trustworthy PC repair shop and there is still budget left after a couple of years.

[dirkgently]

After upgrading every older family member to Chromebook, I have had zero calls for support.

Apple isn't the only game in town.

[lotsofpulp]

Unfortunately, Google has lost all of its goodwill with lack of software updates for their products, lack of battery/power efficiency, and constantly changing names, designs, apps. I tried it, people in my network tried to invest their time into it, at the end everyone just said screw it and went with Apple products. Bonus is Apple stuff re-sells for quite a bit also or lasts much longer, so effectively it doesn't actually cost more.

I know I sound like a fanboy, but after playing with Nexus phones, Xperia phones, Android tablets, Surface book, Lenovo Yogapad, I have decided that I no longer want to invest anymore time into figuring out how to get all of these to work the way I want them to, and the extra cost (if that) for Apple stuff is much cheaper than the time I used to waste on the other stuff.

[ntsplnkv2]

After doing something similar, I get tons of calls because no one knows how to use anything with it and stuff they want just isn't compatible.

Plus, you're 100% tied into google. Everything google - so how can that be considered an alternative?

[jwalton]

I'm a developer. I just bought a 2018 MBP. I seriously thought about jumping ship to Linux. If I'd known about this, I would have.

[toasterlovin]

Yeah, you folks are the ones making all the noise. Meanwhile the silent majority just doesn't care at all. I haven't performed hardware repairs on a computer in more than a decade and don't plant to start any time soon.

[tonyedgecombe]

Most customers don't care, they don't care about repairability because modern devices are so reliable, they don't care about upgradeability because they bought the appropriate spec in the first place. Even if it does fail they don't really care about the cost of repair because they bought a premium product and their expectations are set accordingly.

[bigbugbag]

Actually, people do care about repairability more than you think, just look at the growing popularity of repair cafes.

To me the issue is that devices are made to appear obsolete, a marketing scheme to boost profit, in a limited time frame and replaced instead of repaired not because they are reliable (for example the lawsuit for prone to breaking keys on recent macbooka[1]).

People who care about upgradeability are people who know better and the vast majority does not and endure lack of performance from their badly chosen device for years due to not having enough money to replace them.

Just look at the sheer quantity of people using expensive smartphones despite broken glass, damaged screens and slowly failing touch because they cannot afford the cost of repair. This alone is tell sign that the cost of repair is a serious and significant issue.

[1]: http://www.businessinsider.fr/us/apple-macbook-butterfly-key...

[tonyedgecombe]

Actually, people do care about repairability more than you think

If they really cared it would be reflected in what they buy.

People who care about upgradeability are people who know better

I see, you are so smart and the rest of us are sheep like idiots for buying products they can't repair.

[bigbugbag]

> If they really cared it would be reflected in what they buy.

This is wishful thinking, caring about repairability does not magically make such devices appear on store shelves.

Besides people caring about repairability often have few option due to limited budget which is often why they care for repairability in the first place.

> I see, you are so smart and the rest of us are sheep like idiots for buying products they can't repair.

Being knowledgeable about a kind of product has nothing to do with being an idiot. Not knowing that you can buy a 4GB RAM with mid range cpu computer now, and upgrade to 8GB and better cpu later does not make you an idiot. To each her own field of expertise and most people are not computer hardware expert or do not have the luxury of having time to spend on this.

[jen729w]

FWIW, I upgraded a 5+ year old MacBook Air to the new MacBook Pro basically because I wanted to. I think the screen was the main driver, but really there was nothing wrong with that Air; as evidenced by the fact that a good friend is now using it as her primary computer.

Planned obsolence is another meme that needs to die.

Regarding the cost of screens for a phone, what, you wish they were lower? Me too! But they aren’t, if you want an original Apple screen. They cost a bunch to source ($110) [0], they cost a bunch for Apple to train up techs, and to have the systems and procedures and checklists such that every time you get an Apple replacement, it’s like new.

Would everyone who dropped their phone wish for a $20 replacement? Of course. Tough luck.

I’m not suggesting that non-Apple repair is different, but you have to admit that a knock-off 3rd party screen is probably not going to be as reliable. And who wears the pain and anger when that screen doesn’t work? Apple.

You can’t fault them for wanting to control this stuff. If it was my company, I would.

[0]: https://www.businessinsider.com.au/iphone-x-teardown-parts-c...

[simion314]

>I’m not suggesting that non-Apple repair is different, but you have to admit that a knock-off 3rd party screen is probably not going to be as reliable. And who wears the pain and anger when that screen doesn’t work? Apple.

>You can’t fault them for wanting to control this stuff. If it was my company, I would.

Your example with the screen would be similar to changing say a car part you are forced to go to the manufacturer to get the original part, the fun part is that the windscreen is half the price of a new car so you now start considering buying a new car or gluing your windscreen.

So Apple does not sell parts, forces you to use their repair shops and tax you tons for simple repairs, PLUS they make you pay for their own faults until some class action forces them to admit the hardware faults.

I never seen companies suffer PR impact because someone repaired their old phone/laptop/computer/electronic at a third party.

My points stand for products that are out of warranty, if products are in warranty then the laws apply.

[FabHK]

I didn't use to care about repairability because Apple laptops used to be pretty solid - by the time they give up, you want to buy the latest generation (with vastly more power & speed) anyway.

But recently, I'm having so many problems (that damn 2016 MBP) that repairability looms large.

[flukus]

For someone not blinded by unwavering loyalty you sure do love being locked in to a single vendor.

> Don’t tell me that I can get this all with Linux and a Dell. You know I can’t.

That's a feature, in every category of electronoic life I have multiple companies competing to provide me with nearly everything I want.

> For my “loyalty” to be considered “unwavering” there would have to be a legitimate alternative that does just what Apple does, but lets me repair my own [incredibly powerful, thin, built-like-a-slab-of-rock, trivial to keep up-to-date] laptop. That laptop would have to seamlessly sync my phone and watch, there would have to be superb Bluetooth in-ear wireless headphones available for this ecosystem ... it goes on and on.

That whole paragraph sounds like an ad.

[jen729w]

“For someone not blinded by unwavering loyalty you sure do love being locked in to a single vendor.”

That’ll be a logical fallacy whose name I can’t be arsed finding.

I sure do love not having to deal with a bunch of shit just to keep my computers (phones, tablets, watches, earphones, tv) running. That’s what I love.

This sad trope of the Apple fanboy needs to die. Just because I love not having to deal with all the crap does not mean that I love Apple to the depths of my heart. Would I prefer it if they didn’t lock independent repairers out of their new MacBooks? Sure! (Well “probably”, I haven’t considered all of the security implications. But probably!)

Does that mean I’ll stick by them, no matter, what, for eternity? Of course not. If they start to fuck things up, I’ll look for something better.

The point is, right now, there is nothing better. Don’t lie to me and tell me that Linux on a Dell is better. It is not. It is different in some ways, some of which may be important enough to you such that you classify it as “better”. But, objectively, for the everyman, is the Apple ecosystem currently the best? It absolutely is. Does that make me a sad fanboy? Shame on you if you think so.

[_Tev]

> But, objectively, for the everyman, is the Apple ecosystem currently the best? It absolutely is.

Sorry but that is simply delusional. Cost alone makes Apple products non-starter for a lot of "everymen" (assuming you don't mean by that US upper middle class), as is "objectively" backed up by market share stats (same assumption).

[BrockSamson]

> But, objectively, for the everyman, is the Apple ecosystem currently the best? It absolutely is.

Have any evidence to back up that spurious claim?

[natch]

The posts above listed a lot of evidence. Maybe you’d care to read them, since you ask. Or provide your own counter evidence.

[BrockSamson]

I'm sorry but anecdotes do not prove that something is objectively better, and if the argument is built on anecdotes, then the argument should be rejected.

Also if you make a claim that something is objectively better than the alternative then the burden of proof is on you to show why it is, objectively, better.

[natch]

That's only one way to assess reality. There are other ways, just as valid. We're not in a debate club here.

[michaelmrose]

Aftershot Pro could replace lightroom, Reaper appears to be suitable for music production although there are other options. Both run on windows and linux.

Every other laptop maker in existence lets you repair your own machine.

Lenovo and Dell make solid machines that are powerful and light. Microsofts are even supposed to be pretty good.

The fact that your Apple phone/watch syncs with fewer platforms seems to be a point against your phone and watch not a point in favor of your mac.

Do you really honestly believe that nobody on earth makes decent bluetooth headphones except for apple. Seriously BOSE makes bluetooth headphones.

So far legitimate criticisms include your iphone's playlists not syncing with a different laptop.

Just admit you're a fanboy.

[bigbugbag]

I'd mention darktable[1] and bitwig[2], both are cross-platform linux/win/macos.

[1]: https://www.darktable.org/ [2]: https://www.bitwig.com/

[jen729w]

Nothing like a cross-platform app for that real smooth user experience.

[michaelmrose]

It's not like java gtk or qt were a thing.

[jen729w]

It’s not like they weren’t fucking awful either.

[nextlevelwizard]

So now to get "just as good, but cheaper" laptop which isn't as light or thin since somehow thouse aren't the primary functions of a laptop. I now should also buy a new expensive phone which sends all of my data to Google or I would have to buy the same phone and then research how to install 3rd party ROM which gets updated months later than stock Android and has god knows what security holes. Then I'd need to spend even more money on new watch/health tracker that syncronized seamlessly with both my new phone and my laptop.

Before you get your panties on a knot I run both Windows and Linux and at home whole trifecta Windows, Linux, and OS X

[rapsey]

> Seriously BOSE makes bluetooth headphones.

With serious build quality issues. Mine are literally falling apart.

> So far legitimate criticisms include your iphone's playlists not syncing with a different laptop.

Neither windows nor linux come close to how seamless macOS is. Keyboard navigation with consistent shortcuts across apps and a fantastic touch pad. Watching someone use Windows (a developer even) is like nails on a blackboard. They move unbelievably slow and take forever to do something.