[larsu]

The amount of crippling done by the carriers is not Android's fault nor is it in any way advantaged by Android being open. The same crapware has been on Symbian and other (closed) mobile operating systems for a long time.

Apple is the only manufacturer that was able to convince carriers to sell their phones without any of that garbage. I don't know what is stopping HTC/Motorala/Samsung from trying to enforce similar conditions for its Android-based devices. I guess the carriers simply have too much control over what gets into the market and refuse to sell anything that they aren't allowed to tamper with.

However, I agree with you that the Android brand will suffer very badly from this.

[jonhendry]

" I don't know what is stopping HTC/Motorala/Samsung from trying to enforce similar conditions for its Android-based devices."

If say HTC tried to enforce such conditions, they'd have little leverage because their devices are practically Android-running commodities. If HTC threatened to walk away from a carrier, it likely wouldn't hurt the carrier that much.

Since Apple's the only iOS device vendor, they have a bit more leverage over carriers.

[larsu]

They certainly would have leverage if they built a phone people really want. This is exactly how Apple gained that leverage.

Alternatively, they could team up with the other manufacturers and boycott carriers which refuse to sell their phones as-is. But they simply don't seem to care about their end-users as much as the carriers (and neither does Google apparently).

edit: spelling.

[jonhendry]

"They certainly would have leverage if they built a phone people really want."

There's that, but it won't be too long before someone else releases The Hot New Android Phone. (Which might not live up to the hype, but it'll take the spotlight off the unavailable phone for a while.)

"This is exactly how Apple gained that leverage."

See above. The only company releasing Hot New Apple Phones is Apple.

[masklinn]

> The amount of crippling done by the carriers is not Android's fault nor is it in any way advantaged by Android being open.

Of course it is. Proof in the pudding: iOS has none of it.

> The same crapware has been on Symbian and other (closed) mobile operating systems for a long time.

because Symbian and WiMo were open to carriers and manufacturers.

> I don't know what is stopping HTC/Motorala/Samsung from trying to enforce similar conditions for its Android-based devices.

Because they don't care and because their client is the carrier, not the end-user. An aussie ISP put it quite succinctly a few days/weeks ago when they declared they didn't understand why Apple didn't bow to their demand when they were its biggest customer in Australia.

To Apple, carriers are not customers. They're generally hindrances and they might be partners, but Apple's customers are end-user.

Not so for HTC or moto.

[larsu]

Of course it is. Proof in the pudding: iOS has none of it.

You missed my point, which was that the crippling is not Android's fault but that of the carriers and phone manufacturers. Its also not due to some inherent property of iOS that it doesn't have any crapware, but thanks to Apple caring about their customers more than about the carriers.

To Apple, carriers are not customers. They're generally hindrances and they might be partners, but Apple's customers are end-user.

Not so for HTC or moto.

Exactly. But again, this has nothing to do with Android or its openness.