[localhost3000]

lol @ startups with no engineers yet paying “market rate”... they will maybe pay market rate within their stage band i.e. compared to other SV seed-stage startups, but this will still be way below the liquid total comp at a post IPO tech company. At this point in the tech cycle the math is so out of whack in favor of big co that I can’t with a straight face recommend to anyone that they join a seed startup as an early employee engineer unless they’re already well off financially (5-7 years ago I felt like I could). There are exceptions, of course.

[solatic]

Yeah but those exceptions are pretty big. The hiring pipelines at FAANG are so over-tuned for false negatives that there are plenty of engineers who are good enough to work at a FAANG for FAANG-level compensation yet are not actually getting offers from FAANG companies. They're on the market for (market minus FAANG)-rate compensation.

Then you have to remember that FAANG companies are large enterprises, by definition, and that comes with a lot of overhead - design by committee, politicking between middle-management fiefdoms, not being a part of the conversation when irrefutable directives are issued by executives four levels above you, varying levels of paperwork and documentation that are necessary in large organizations. That's soul-sucking for a lot of people, and those people will exclude themselves from FAANG-level compensation, and are on the market for (market minus FAANG)-rate compensation.

The real reason why a lot of founders can't hire at market rate compensation is that any early employee, even if you're paying them market rate, needs to buy into your vision just as much as you do. The upside for early employees, even more than potential compensation, is in being a strong influence, including at relatively senior levels, as the company grows. If, as an IC, you find yourself being recruited by somebody who you think is a strong and experienced leader, selling a product that you personally think is important, then you grab the bull by the horns and get on. If somebody who rambles and can't make eye contact asks you to join to build out Uber-for-pidgeons, it doesn't really matter how much compensation is being offered; you're going to walk away.

[hello_moto]

>The hiring pipelines at FAANG are so over-tuned for false negatives that there are plenty of engineers who are good enough to work at a FAANG for FAANG-level compensation yet are not actually getting offers from FAANG companies.

What happen is that these people will keep trying until they get in. They will focus only in one thing and one thing only: FAANG.

> That's soul-sucking for a lot of people, and those people will exclude themselves from FAANG-level compensation, and are on the market for (market minus FAANG)-rate compensation.

I find things have changed a lot where housing dictates personal career choices lately. It sucks to not be able to buy your own property. I don't care what people strategy is (be it work 4-5 years for FAANG and move midwest or whatnot).

[adrianN]

There are many companies that offer pretty good pay and great job security outside FAANG. Try Microsoft, Oracle, Siemens, Airbus, SAP or one of the million medium sized companies whose name you've never heard of unless you're in the same line of business.

[vonmoltke]

My experience has been that those companies (except for Microsoft and Oracle) have been well below FANG compensation levels, while being in line (and sometimes lower) than what I can get from later stage startups and not much higher than I have heard from early stage startups. I have only looked for opportunities in NYC and Dallas, though, so that might skew my observations.

[brianwawok]

You realize not all startups are in SV?

You realize not all job markets have developer jobs paying 400k?

[hello_moto]

> You realize not all startups are in SV?

Absolutely. Having said that, I won't join non-SV startups. Why? very simple: the chance of hitting the jackpot is significantly higher in SV.

> You realize not all job markets have developer jobs paying 400k?

For sure, but why would I joined non-SV startups getting paid peanuts while I can join a more established company and get paid double (base, stock, bonus, health benefit).

I felt that First Engineer is a sucker if you don't get compensated well enough (be it way more equity than the typical 0.5-1% or something else).

At the end of the day, I'd choose to maximise my career: be it joining a startup to gain experience knowing the whole stack or joining large enterprise for better career-path and compensation.

I don't join startups to "Change the World" or to "Hit the jackpot with 0.5-1% equity".