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by erw1 2858 days ago
>Unfortunately, they decided to commit murders on foreign soil, invade other countries and other nasty things that made this relationship a lot less attractive than it could have been.

That describes US policy over the last 20 years. The lack of self-awareness is astounding.
2 comments
mr_overalls 2858 days ago
Tu quoque fallacy. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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roenxi 2858 days ago
That isn't actually the tu quoque fallacy, although it does look quite similar at first glance.

A = [commit murders on foreign soil, invade other countries and other nasty things] B = [made this relationship a lot less attractive] C = [it is wise to improve our relationship]

The original claim is A -> B, A(Russia) -> True.

The response is that A -> B, A(US) -> True. Therefore, if C(US), C(Russia) is also not ruled out. Logically sound.

This isn't claiming that rbanffy's argument is wrong because A(rbanffy). I suspect rbanffy is probably not even committing murders on foregin soil, le alone the other stuff, so it isn't a tu quoque fallacy. It is just pointing out that A isn't an international norm for cutting off productive relationships.

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erw1 2858 days ago
If you expect people to stop doing something disagreeable, you better make sure you are not deeply engaged in the same type of behavior. That seems fairly straight-forward.
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mr_overalls 2858 days ago
It's not straightforward - that's exactly the point of the tu quoque fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

As an individual American who is not involved in intelligence or military work, I can condemn such actions by any nation while maintaining moral consistency.

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erw1 2858 days ago
The point of that wiki article (tu quoque fallacy) is that the critic's moral character is irrelevant. The whole point is that you don't need 'moral consistency' to critique bad behavior.

So then why do you feel the need to justify yourself by saying that you don't work in defense? :) You basically stepped into the same trap you warmed me against :) Maintaining moral high ground seems to be a vital need, something on the level of instinct it seems. 'Tu quoque' or no 'tu quoque' we like to feel morally justified.

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prolikewh0a 2858 days ago
I just came off of finishing Chomsky's 'Manufacturing Consent' and I couldn't tell who they were talking about. It sounded far too benign to be US foreign policy even!
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