[Aramgutang]

Visa-free travel was what made me truly understand what "privilege" means.

Having an Armenian passport and travelling extensively through my life made me very familiar with what the author describes: the months-long waits, the fees, the scramble for documents, the uncertainty, the inability to travel without planning months in advance, the queues, the unpleasant experiences at airports, etc...

Eventually I managed to become an Australian permanent resident, which grants the right to travel to New Zealand without a visa. Some time after, a sudden opportunity came up, and I landed at Auckland airport, having booked my tickets the night before. I handed my completely blank, recently renewed, Armenian passport to the immigration agent (permanent residency is technically a type of visa, there is no "green card", and Australian visas are electronic, not placed as labels in a passport unless requested). He scanned it, stamped it, and handed it back to me, welcoming me to NZ. Took all of 20 seconds.

That whole experience was completely surreal for me, not because it was so different, but because it was so mundane. There was nothing to suggest that this process might be different for some people. Everything about it screamed "this is normal", while my mind screamed the opposite.

That was my first-hand lesson that unless you've ever lacked a certain privilege, it is near-impossible to be innately aware of it. Sure, others may try to educate you and make you aware, but it doesn't convey just how profound of an impact a privilege can have on the lives of those who lack it.

[alpinemeadow]

your post touched a nerve for me: on my last trip to the US I used my new Swedish passport. The experience was surreal in the sense that I entered the US with my US passport in 2’. Returning to EU it took 10” as I scanned my passport on a kiosk on my own. I originally have an Argentinian passport and sadly it’s only good for me for when I ocassiobally go back to visit family. OTOH is funny to hear people complaining about the hardships of international travel, even if you have to go thru a lengthy process to get a visa. The fact we are discussing these topics probably puts a lot of us on the top 5% of income earners in the world. Privilege is the water we swim in, we just stopped seeing it after a while.

[gbaygon]

In fact an Argentinian passport is really good for travelling. You don’t need a visa for the European Union, South and Central America, most Asia, and quick online visas for Australia and New Zeland. The only main visa needed is for USA (and Canada) but it takes one interview and is not that difficult to get. There are far worse passports to have believe me.

[close04]

https://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php

Some people take this freedom for granted because they were born with it and can't imagine it was ever different.

[pjc50]

One of the remarkable things about Brexit has been all the people campaigning against visa-free travel and residence who didn't realise it was reciprocal and would apply to them. Especially Britons who had immigrated to Spain or France and were relying on freedom of movement rather than the tedious business of actual residency.

[aembleton]

Those Britons didn't get a chance to vote in the referendum.

[sonnyblarney]

Nobody in the UK is arguing that EU citizens should not be able to travel visa free, or rather, this is fringe, and a tiny minority of them wouldn't grasp it would be reciprocal.

Most are arguing against free settlement and access to social services and voting rights by anyone else in the EU. This is a hugely different thing.

Furthermore, the UK would under any system allow quite a number of EU citizens to come and work, so long as they meet some kind of criteria consistent with the needs of the UK - this is rational.

Spain benefits quite tremendously from the 'near full time' retirees coming there, so long as they don't have to foot the bill for healthcare (which they don't) and it would be in Spain's interest to have quite a large number of Britons coming there to retire. Britons aren't looking for jobs or voting rights, or to have children in the economy, just for domicile for a couple of decades.

[pjc50]

In the absence of a national ID system or local registration requirements (a la France), how do you tell the difference between a visa free entrant and an illegal resident?

> criteria consistent with the needs of the UK

So, would you be imposing the existing rest-of-world spousal visa requirements on people who are already here with their EU spouses? If the answer is yes, do you accept that you're going to force a significant number of Brits to either lose their family or emigrate?

The existing Home Office system is already an inhumane disaster area which has no clear idea what "the needs of the UK" are.

> don't have to foot the bill for healthcare (which they don't)

Isn't this dependent on the EHIC system? What's happening with that?

Aren't you uncomfortable with the idea that being domiciled somewhere for a couple of decades wouldn't come with voting rights?

[sonnyblarney]

"In the absence of a national ID system or local registration requirements (a la France), how do you tell the difference between a visa free entrant and an illegal resident?"

Are you asking 'how the rest of the world' does it?

Or how the UK handles non-EU visitors today that don't require visas?

Because I don't think it's a concern.

"ren't you uncomfortable with the idea that being domiciled somewhere for a couple of decades wouldn't come with voting rights?"

Not at all. Especially because 'a vote' won't hardly make a difference. What matters is the integrity of the regime in question, and Spain is 'good enough'.

If Spain wants to give local/municipal voting rights to those on long-term retirement visas, then that's fine - point being, it's the decision of the Spaniards, not some ruthless adherence to ideology such as 'freedom of movement', the harsh interpretation of which is tearing the EU apart and turning politics across the continent upside down.

[lostlogin]

> He scanned it, stamped it, and handed it back to me, welcoming me to NZ. Took all of 20 seconds.

Just don’t try bringing a bit of fruit across the border into NZ, seriously. Multiple sharp objects in carry on gets a raised eyebrow but a piece of fruit will ruin your week.

[daemin]

Or even between parts of Australia, both countries take bio security very seriously!

[FabHK]

Yep, Australia has a dingo fence, a rabbit fence, and, as I learned when searching for those, now a cat fence (though much shorter).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo_Fence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit-proof_fence

https://phys.org/news/2018-05-australia-world-longest-cat-pr...

[daemin]

True, but I was referring to the fruit and quarantine zones set up in parts of south and eastern Australia, where they are trying to prevent the spread of fruit fly.

[kerbalspacepro]

As they should! Failed interpersonal security is limited to a tiny area, failed bio security can fuck up an entire ecosystem!

[astura]

Don't bring fruit or meat across international boarders, or if you do declare it and understand you may have it taken away. Countries are super serious about this and undeclared items come with fines in the hundreds of dollars range.

[majani]

This is something I've been struggling with as an African who likes to travel. It seems to me that the thinking now in developed countries is that you don't need to hate the "others," but you don't need to trust them either. I've been wondering whether this is the reasonable middle ground to expect in terms of bias towards "others."

[xaranke]

I think Australia has done this fairly well with their tiers of visitor visas: ETA, eVisa, stamped visa. From time to time countries jump tiers, like India moving from stamped visa to eVisa. Of course if your case is more complicated you might move down a tier too.

[Scoundreller]

Thank you for calling the eta what it is: a visa.

Countries that provide “reciprocal” visa-free travel to Australians should cry foul about it.

[tehlike]

The situation is usually worse with just having to go through security at the airports alone. I got my greencard a while back, and got global entry immediately after, and i dont really know how i managed to travel without it. It is even better at the immigration, you jist type a number and you are in and out in < 3 mins. All for the price of 100$/5yr.

[aramk]

Your story is a bit similar to mine. I'm also named Aram, was born in Armenia, and moved to Australia at a young age. Apart from the initial move, I haven't had issues travelling with my Australian passport as a citizen or getting a visa besides the odd question about my birth country. What are you up to these days?

[PunchTornado]

wait till you travel across europe without any border checks or passport, just an EU ID.

[Scoundreller]

Tell that to the French with their passport checks on arriving in-Schengen flights.

[d0100]

Well, being able to travel to another country is the real privilege

[another-cuppa]

> That was my first-hand lesson that unless you've ever lacked a certain privilege, it is near-impossible to be innately aware of it.

Not really true. I had a girlfriend with a "weak" passport. I have a British passport. I'm very aware of how much easier it is for me to travel and I've done nothing to deserve it. I didn't have to lack the privilege myself to understand it, though.

[Aramgutang]

I concede that experiences you share with partners or close family are near-equivalents of having those experiences yourself, even when you're just the "passenger" on their journey.

[amirmc]

I’d argue it’s not the same. It certainly gives you a very close and stark window into what it’s like, but it doesn’t compare to the lived experience.

[Aramgutang]

Agree, which is why I said "near-equivalent".

For example if your partner has a chronic illness, you can never say you felt their pain, but you can say you know what it's like to live with it. You felt the impact of the illness on your shared life, and you shared the emotions it caused, which are lessons that no amount of reading, listening, or watching can instill in you.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's somewhere between being a first-hand and second-hand experience, because of the notion of a "shared life".

[fgheorghe]

As a 3rd world country, Armenia seems to have a pretty quick travel time

[Aramgutang]

Sorry, I'm not sure I'm following. What do you mean by "quick travel time" in this context?

[close04]

I'm also not sure why Armenia would be a 3rd world country. What definition is used, the Cold War eastern/western bloc allegiance or as an undeveloped country in Africa, LatAm, Asia, or Oceania? Because as it stands today Armenia is neither.

[peachananr]

I think you can define a country as a 3rd world by the amount of foreign aid that country is getting.

[close04]

Is that a personal or an official definition?

I think most people consider anything that they can't point to on a map with a precision better than 1000mi as 3rd world.