[pjc50]

One of the remarkable things about Brexit has been all the people campaigning against visa-free travel and residence who didn't realise it was reciprocal and would apply to them. Especially Britons who had immigrated to Spain or France and were relying on freedom of movement rather than the tedious business of actual residency.

[aembleton]

Those Britons didn't get a chance to vote in the referendum.

[sonnyblarney]

Nobody in the UK is arguing that EU citizens should not be able to travel visa free, or rather, this is fringe, and a tiny minority of them wouldn't grasp it would be reciprocal.

Most are arguing against free settlement and access to social services and voting rights by anyone else in the EU. This is a hugely different thing.

Furthermore, the UK would under any system allow quite a number of EU citizens to come and work, so long as they meet some kind of criteria consistent with the needs of the UK - this is rational.

Spain benefits quite tremendously from the 'near full time' retirees coming there, so long as they don't have to foot the bill for healthcare (which they don't) and it would be in Spain's interest to have quite a large number of Britons coming there to retire. Britons aren't looking for jobs or voting rights, or to have children in the economy, just for domicile for a couple of decades.

[pjc50]

In the absence of a national ID system or local registration requirements (a la France), how do you tell the difference between a visa free entrant and an illegal resident?

> criteria consistent with the needs of the UK

So, would you be imposing the existing rest-of-world spousal visa requirements on people who are already here with their EU spouses? If the answer is yes, do you accept that you're going to force a significant number of Brits to either lose their family or emigrate?

The existing Home Office system is already an inhumane disaster area which has no clear idea what "the needs of the UK" are.

> don't have to foot the bill for healthcare (which they don't)

Isn't this dependent on the EHIC system? What's happening with that?

Aren't you uncomfortable with the idea that being domiciled somewhere for a couple of decades wouldn't come with voting rights?

[sonnyblarney]

"In the absence of a national ID system or local registration requirements (a la France), how do you tell the difference between a visa free entrant and an illegal resident?"

Are you asking 'how the rest of the world' does it?

Or how the UK handles non-EU visitors today that don't require visas?

Because I don't think it's a concern.

"ren't you uncomfortable with the idea that being domiciled somewhere for a couple of decades wouldn't come with voting rights?"

Not at all. Especially because 'a vote' won't hardly make a difference. What matters is the integrity of the regime in question, and Spain is 'good enough'.

If Spain wants to give local/municipal voting rights to those on long-term retirement visas, then that's fine - point being, it's the decision of the Spaniards, not some ruthless adherence to ideology such as 'freedom of movement', the harsh interpretation of which is tearing the EU apart and turning politics across the continent upside down.