[LarryL]

The title of the article is misleading, it's not programming that is the real issue, it's billing (the progamming issues are just a part in the article).

Since the Credit Card companies & banks create lots of problems as soon as sex is involved (see FetLife's misadventures in HN previous articles for instance) in addition to the big chargebacks issue, and given that customers lie a lot (because they can), I think that the best solution for pornsites would be something similar to prepaid cards used for Google Play, consoles networks and the like.

You buy a card, this puts a limited amount on your "PornPlayButDontSayItIsForThat" account, it's easy to control, anonymous, limits risks even if the account is compromised or the porn site dodgy (hidden automatic renevals & the like) since at most you'd lose that limited amount, then you can buy porn without the issue of the SO (a big problem it seems) and without any banks (or whatever) knowing about your -still badly perceived- habits.

In fact, I'm surprised such a system (not specific to a porn site/network) is not already widely available. Of course, it would not present itself as "the Porn Prepaid Card" because of the stigma... Note that some sites/networks accept gift cards already (I've checked), but it's not very practical (not fine grained, you must use the whole card) and they don't accept ALL cards, what do you do when you're living in France and they only accept American gift cards? You can also buy "tokens" in many sites (especially Webcams) but they still require a CC, so the problem is not solved. A more general "ePurse" system would be better.

This is much more realistic -IMO- than using Bitcoins or the like (too difficult to use and too volatile).

Of course, to REALLY solve the problem you'd "only" need people to stop seeing sex (and porn) as bad, dirty, taboo, etc. But this won't happen anytime soon :-(((

[chopin]

You're looking for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paysafecard. It's pretty common here in Europe.

[bumholio]

The problem with this approach, and the related proposals like 3D Secure and Bitcoin, is precisely that it puts a low ceiling on what the site is allowed to charge to exactly what the customer is willing to spend on porn. The bread and butter of porn and most other internet subscription models is to get hold of the consumer credit card data and then setup a long run recurring payment stream, on the expectation that while most people will cancel it, a profitable minority will forget or enjoy and pay for the service further.

If just 25% of the customers let the subscription run for an average of 1 additional year, you will net 4x more money compared to a site that needs to renew the purchase every month, with zero customer acquisition costs and zero marginal costs for the provider - the content and platform are a sunk cost and traffic charges are negligible. Only now you have 4x more money to produce the content and generally be more competitive, pushing out of the market those who don't adopt the same tricks.

This is what The New York Times and porn sites have in common, and that's why you will see similar dark patterns of making subscription hard to cancel. In the porn's case, it's a much steeper uphill battle to get the money from the customer and his bank (and his wife), so they are forever relegated to the high-chargeback bin and must internalize that into their business model. Which might explain some of the "breakage" the original author is observing.

[phkahler]

If there was a prepaid card that make these payments easy and even anonymous, I'd spend a lot more on the internet. I refuse to get into subscriptions. I pass on a lot of articles that I'd like to read. A prepaid card that not connected to my finances and widely usable? If drop a hundred on it today. How many people like me will it take to have this make sense?

[mcherm]

But such an anonymous prepaid card would ALSO be very useful for money laundering. Because of that, no regulated financial institution will provide such a product. We used to have some (like prepaid debit cards purchased in person with cash) but the few that existed have nearly all been eliminated (in the US).

I am sure that if someone were to propose using specially printed pieces of paper as a way of exchanging value that the government would prohibit it. The FBI would testify about "the financial system going dark", the banking regulators would complain about money laundering, and the whole scheme to invent "cash" would be denounced more vigorously than Bitcoin has been.

[phkahler]

But I can buy stuff in the real world with cash. What does it take to do the same electronically?

[scarface74]

All prepaid cards are anonymous. You pay for the card with cash.

[skykooler]

Last time I bought a prepaid card (I believe it was Visa), to register it I had to be looked up in the credit card database. As I did not have a credit card at the time (hence buying the prepaid card), I was not in the database, so they would not sell me the card.

[chatmasta]

What is “the credit card database?” What country is this? In the US we only have credit reports, which are tied to SSN. Do you mean you had to give your SSN to receive a prepaid card? That doesn’t seem right.

[skykooler]

Yes, this was in the US. And yes, I had to give SSN. As far as I understand this requirement was added sometime around 2011.

[sincerely]

Where do you live?

[stevenicr]

I thought some were anonymous when paid with cash, however some of those require that they are activated using a web browser and they request additional info, some requiring physical address and SS that match some database in order to use them.

I have also seen some businesses refuse to take a prepaid cash card, some saying nothing,

and others saying that they can not process such a card as recurring billing is blocked by the issuer or something.

I think there is some distinction at the card kiosks re-loadable vs non-relaodable making a difference with some of these issues.

Of course using a loyalty card during purchase or using a debit card to buy one adds personal info into multiple databases I would assume.

[scarface74]

Now it makes sense. Some vendors may not take a prepaid card if they can’t verify that the card matches an address with the card. I would assume this would especially be the case for online merchants shipping physical goods.

In that case, you may have to provide an address on a website.

[mrweasel]

I don't think I understand the issue with using 3D Secure, or Verified by VISA. It's something customers are already accustom when shopping online. You're buying a high risk item, from the perspective of the sell, similarly to downloadable content, or high price electronics. Solution like 3D Secure seems ideal in this case.

Companies like Stripe could easily say: Yes, we do accept payments for adult sites, but 3D Secure will be enabled on all purchases. I don't think that would scare of more customer than bouncing them between multiple payment provides and seeing the their payment reject multiple times.

[bena]

The problem is the customer on that side. The adult entertainment industry would love to use standard billing methods.

But what happens is that the customer invariably screams "I was hacked" when the line item comes on the bill. Then the chargeback happens anyway. Sure, the merchant isn't held financially liable for it, but they are still noted as having that chargeback. And they'll still hit that high percentage of "fraudulent charges".

And that's the real problem. Nobody will touch them because it costs too much to do so.

[mrweasel]

That a rather valid point. In theory the card companies would turn around an say: "No, you where not hacked. 3D Secure is completely safe", but do they really want to bother with that kind of publicity? Most likely not.

[joecot]

The problem is that most consumers don't plan ahead for wanting to buy a porn subscription. It's a spur of the moment decision. Any form of barrier you put in front of that decision -- whether it's extra verification, or a different digital currency they need to buy, or a prepaid card just for adult content -- drastically reduces the percentage of surfers that go from "guy looking at the site's preview page" to "guy that became a member."

This is why few Adult companies have setup Verified by Visa or 3-D Secure (though as I noted elsewhere, 3-D Secure rarely actually works) for verifying cards before charging the transaction. This is why Adult companies in the UK started scrambling when they passed legislation requiring driver's license verification. This is why no prepaid adult content card -- and there have been numerous, including one promoted by Howard Stern -- has ever really caught on. Any extra step required to pay for a site increases the percentage of people that just click off to somewhere else. Luring those people to your site in the first place is expensive, involving all sorts of advertising and affiliate deals, so anything that reduces the conversion ratio is a deal breaker.

[hakfoo]

I wonder if fraud could be reduced by creating a "push" payment model instead of pull. Not just for adult sites, but for e-commerce in general.

The form says "To subscribe, remit $25 to account 12345678, and paste the transaction ID into this field." The merchant could then verify that the transaction ID matched up with a payment he received and complete the sale.

With a standardized microformat for the payment data, this could probably all be detectable and streamlined into browser plugins or apps-- you'd just see a button that redirects you to log into your bank's site with the transfer details prewired.

I figure this has plenty of benefits:

* The only remotely sensitive data you pass to the merchant is a transaction ID. You'd probably be able to actually do the sale without SSL, but certainly without most of the PCI compliance hassle.

* The merchant can't use the info you provided to enable an unexpected second charge or subscription.

* The bank can choose to make their process for executing the push transactions as "easy" or as "secure" as they (or the users) want. The merchant doesn't have to know, care, or worse, spend money to retool their site to support changes.

In a way, PayPal's flow is sort of push-oriented, but it's ugly in a lot of ways.

[dangom]

That's really a nice idea.

One of the possible issues here is that some of these cards, specially anonymous ones, may take time to validate. Users may not want to wait 24hrs+ for their digital content to arrive.

This should be a solvable problem, though.

[tomjen3]

WHy would it take that long? If anything a new currency system would work _outside_ the broken international money transfer system.

[greyman]

> Of course, to REALLY solve the problem you'd "only" need people to stop seeing sex (and porn) as bad, dirty, taboo, etc. But this won't happen anytime soon :-(((

It won't, since it is not universally true, that seeing porn is not bad. There are thousands of personal accounts, or even a whole communities of people, who are trying to get rid of porn watching due to damage it brought to their lives.

[doombolt]

Why can't they just close the web page as opposed to affect other people's behavior? If that fails, go see a doctor with your own money.

E.g. I watch porn and I don't need their efforts on liberating me from it, thank you.

[merinowool]

World is full of do-gooders and forces willing to exploit them.

[nkozyra]

It's impossible to view this in isolation. Did its perception in society contribute to the damage? If you're constantly told something you're doing is bad you'll want to stop. If you can't, you'll feel shame or worse.

[tomjen3]

Those communities seem like a way to get around the feeling of guilt associated with sex through a Christian inspired cultural lens, not based on any actual harm.

There are cultures out there where men were nothing more than a stick around their penis. I would personally not be comfortable with that, but presumably the people born in those cultures are.

[SmellyGeekBoy]

I'd say that gambling does a lot worse damage and that is much more widespread and "legitimate" (here in the UK at least). Online gambling sites are even advertised on primetime TV!

Or for a better example of a perfectly above-board and healthy activity enjoyed by huge numbers of people that can become addictive and "a problem" - how about gaming?

(I'm not trying to belittle your point or resort to "whataboutism" here, just pointing out some examples from other industries).

The problem with porn is that it's sex and sex is dirty and bad and you should feel ashamed for having anything to do with it. /s

[bena]

Here in the US, on every lottery and gambling advertisement, there is a small notice or disclaimer for gambling addiction hotlines.

So yeah, like you, I'm not buying the entire "because some people are addicted" angle either. We are sold addictive substances all the time.

[jjeaff]

With pornography, there is the added stigma of an industry that has a lot of exploitation, abuse, and sex trafficking.