[amarant]

wow, I would expect such behavior from teenage gamers, but I'm surprised to see it reported among (presumably adult) game-devs.

what is perhaps even more surprising is that they seem to somehow be able to cooperate enough to deliver a undeniably popular game.

don't get me wrong, I don't doubt for a second that what Meagan says is true. I am simply surprised they manage to produce anything at all in such a culture, let alone a hit game.

[masklinn]

Why? Shared behaviour — even juvenile — creates strong in-group bounds. And some competition within a cooperative environment is common. Especially if most of the group does relatively menial work.

Furthermore juvenile behaviour is commonly encouraged by both gaming and SV companies/corps: aside from being convenient to pull in just out of college without necessitating their adaptation to adulthood, it also serves as distraction/misdirection from work environment issues (permanent crunch, burnout, comp'): people who complain can just be feminized and dismissed as needing to "man up".

In fact, regular introduction of critics (and their following violent rejection) serves as both outlet for frustration and a strengthening of in-group bonds.

[roenxi]

Without any exposure in practice, there is another interesting subtlety here that are related to the stereotype of 'juvenile behavior is commonly encouraged by both gaming and SV companies'.

Opinions don't happen in a vacuum, usually they are formed after carefully consulting a group of peers. It follows that men would form opinions of women after discussion with other men, women of men in discussion with other women. A couple of things that OP describes read to me like this discussion playing out in a work environment, without understanding of how the woman listening in feels about it. I can sympathise, I'd hate to hear a frank discussion of my potential as a partner or have it floating around as watercooler gossip; that talk does not belong in a workspace.

But is there any evidence that the work-as-family-and-friends atmosphere makes these discussions more public? Or are they just a general problem of workplaces? I'd believe either and I don't know where the evidence is.

[amarant]

I mean, you would appear to be right. I wont argue the contrary. still, I had not expected it.

[masklinn]

The dynamic seems fairly similar to army grunts.

[mozumder]

So, in tech, do people not go to strip clubs anymore?

Like, what's the culture now? Are all interpersonal relationships now formalized into an algorithm?

Do people not get into actual fistfights at the office anymore?

[pjc50]

> do people not go to strip clubs anymore?

I've been in the industry 20 years and not had that happen anywhere I worked in the UK.

> Are all interpersonal relationships now formalized into an algorithm?

Eh?

> Do people not get into actual fistfights at the office anymore?

The guy I knew who did that at his gaming company Christmas party got put on "final warning" for a year.

[mozumder]

> I've been in the industry 20 years and not had that happen anywhere I worked in the UK.

Do you think that's because of the corporate culture you're at or due to you personally not knowing about it?

What do you do after-hours at conferences in Vegas? Check out the Britney Spears show or Cirque du Soleil?

> The guy I knew who did that at his gaming company Christmas party got put on "final warning" for a year.

So, how come he didn't get fired? Was he critical to project success at all?

[Balero]

In the UK there is no strip club culture like there is in the US. The only people who go in them in the UK are slimy old men. It is not something even remotely acceptable, and I would think less of anyone going to one here.

"What do you do after-hours at conferences in Vegas?" Probably gamble, not everything is different.

"So, how come he didn't get fired? Was he critical to project success at all?" We don't have on-demand firing. It has to be a process, and you have to have a justifiable reason, and process.

[rsynnott]

> So, in tech, do people not go to strip clubs anymore?

Worked in the industry for the last 15 years or so (in Ireland). Never heard of this. I'd think it'd be a HR matter if someone suggested it in most decent companies.

[xsace]

> I am simply surprised they manage to produce anything at all in such a culture, let alone a hit game.

The same culture you can find in Holywood, where hundreds of successful movies with unrivaled popular impact were produced.

[EliRivers]

You seem to be suggesting that such a culture is not an impediment to success, based on the existence of some success.

I could blindfold myself and throw darts at a board. The fact that I hit the board sometimes doesn't mean that the blindfold isn't an impediment.

Many more movies fail before even reaching the screen. Just because we see some success doesn't mean that the culture isn't an impediment to success. Perhaps a different culture would produce many more successes.

We would need a lot more data before we could draw any such conclusions.

Edit: I see that's exactly what you're saying from your reply; "...such culture is not an impediment to success." I disagree; we cannot draw that conclusion from the data.

Extra edit: Oh, your answer has vanished.

[lmm]

If you won competitive darts championships while blindfolded, that would suggest the blindfold wasn't an impediment.

Given how long the movie industry has been around and how many studios have gone bankrupt through competition, I would think that any cultures that significantly impeded productivity would have been stamped out by now.

[rsynnott]

> Given how long the movie industry has been around and how many studios have gone bankrupt through competition, I would think that any cultures that significantly impeded productivity would have been stamped out by now.

A movie studio is generally either very successful, or soon dead; there's not that much middle ground. So relatively small optimisations (such as not creating a hostile work environment that drives away employees) may not have much of an effect on survival.

[EliRivers]

"If you won competitive darts championships while blindfolded, that would suggest the blindfold wasn't an impediment."

How many of the other competitors were blindfolded?

How many of the other movie studios have this culture?

"I would think that any cultures that significantly impeded productivity would have been stamped out by now."

Evolution doesn't always lead to better final outcomes. In a culture of dickheads, being a slightly bigger dickhead can give a personal advantage. Soon, everyone is a raging dickhead. The same applies to companies. The same applies to species (although with them it's not so much "raging dickhead" as "some small individually advantageous feature").

[lmm]

> Evolution doesn't always lead to better final outcomes. In a culture of dickheads, being a slightly bigger dickhead can give a personal advantage. Soon, everyone is a raging dickhead. The same applies to companies. The same applies to species (although with them it's not so much "raging dickhead" as "some small individually advantageous feature").

You're moving the goalposts. Are Riot "dickheads" here? Maybe. That's a very different argument from saying that their culture makes their games worse.

[TomMarius]

But it's apparent that the culture doesn't prevent success even in other industries

[EliRivers]

Yet it could be impeding success, like throwing darts at a board while blindfolded. I'll still hit the board sometimes. So is the blindfold no impediment?

[xsace]

Well I still think it shouldn't come as a surprise. We've got many example of successful industries with such culture, why would video game work any different.

[rsynnott]

The average company in the video games industry isn't like what's described; it does seem to be especially bad.

[TomMarius]

I completely agree. Never wanted to say otherwise, just that it doesn't prevent it. I don't think your metaphor is correct, though. Some people actually thrive in this environment (of course most of the time at the cost of others, but let's put that aside - not that it's not a problem), who thrives while blindfolded?

[majewsky]

> Who thrives while blindfolded?

Those people that solve Rubik's Cubes while blindfolded, maybe?

[pjc50]

They're only directing their hostility at the ""other"". All this shittiness doesn't affect their straight white male devs (the majority), so they can function just fine.

Game devs tend to be gamers who've reached adulthood but would like to stay within the gaming culture. That means they're either acclimatized to or actively enjoy the shittiness.

All this stuff used to be "standard business culture" in the West, and the campaign against it has been a long road since women got the vote.

[meheleventyone]

I’m not sure I’d characterise game developers quite that way but Riot’s hiring practices almost certainly contributed towards hiring that subset of developers. They require you to be a hardcore gamer and regular League player. Amongst other things this is quite a good filter to find a bunch of toxic employees.

[amarant]

>They're only directing their hostility at the ""other"". All this shittiness doesn't affect their straight white male devs (the majority), so they can function just fine.

I don't think that's entirely true. even if they use sexual and racial slurs, it's apparent from the article that they are used as insults directed at each other. I'm a white hetero male developer (not game-dev though) myself, and I'm not sure I'd be able to work in a environment such as the one described for too long. I mean it'd certainly be easier for me, given my biological "fitting in" with the rest of the group. I'd still have a hard time in such a culture.

[mrguyorama]

They aren't calling their fellow white males "crackers". By using such slang intended as an insult, there is an implication that the "other" is "lesser"

[ethbro]

Yelling obscenities against minorities, directed at those of your own group seems like it would strongly reinforce an "Us" / "Them" differentiation.

What's more bonding than shared mockery of the other?

[StreamBright]

> I am simply surprised they manage to produce anything at all in such a culture, let alone a hit game.

they are lucky, largely. there are enough people who put in just enough work to keep all things happening and there is roughly (my estimate, dont hold me accountable) 50% who are just there doing nothing. you could not do this at amazon or other performance focused companies because it would be obvious after very little time that you are not pulling your weight, but since Riot does not have the same level of management, tooling and insights into employee performance they don't care. the money is flowing in, all good.

[Kurtz79]

It's not exactly a new thing, even outside of gaming:

https://www.businessinsider.com/bro-culture-harassment-discr...

If you have been exposed to the same culture through school, higher education and then finally the workplace, it is not suprising some people find it acceptable or even normal...

[amarant]

I was exposed to that kind of culture in school/uni, and while I got used to it at the time, I much prefer the slightly more civil relationships I now have with colleagues. getting rid of the toxicity is one of the greatest advantages of professional work life compared to my days studying imho.

I mean the pay is nice too, but it was less important to me before I got used to it. Now it would be hard to give up though ;P

[rsynnott]

> I am simply surprised they manage to produce anything at all in such a culture, let alone a hit game.

They produced a hit game about a decade ago, as a far, far smaller and probably less dysfunctional company. Beyond maintaining it, they don't seem to have done much of note since.

[yellowcherry]

You have some very very wrong ideas about how the world actually works.