[Mbioguy]

A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system. Utah is an interesting place. The geography of the Wasatch Front lends itself to public transit in ways that less geographically-constrained places do not. The region is mostly a north-south corridor, with occasional off-shoots to the side, which is how the transit network has developed. There is a significant tech culture, from 'little silicon slopes' in Lehi to the significant student population. The valley has seasonal pollution problems caused by mountains to the east and west. This is made worse by the lake effect, which means energy solutions helpful elsewhere are less effective, like natural gas plants. What would otherwise be transient pollutants instead react with ammonia from the lake and persist in the atmosphere, further trapped by the mountains. Utah has a significant need for public transit, and getting students connected and using it is a great way for generational change to occur. Car culture still rules, and will for a long time, but this is a good thing to hear. Hopefully a Trax expansion or equivalent in Utah county will happen eventually. Until then, this seems the next best policy.

[hueving]

>A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system.

Only if you buy the strawmen of politics in the US of there being two 'sides' with everyone neatly falling into place on a pathetic line.

The further you get away from the shithole that is the US federal government, the more this becomes apparent. The things each 'side' is supposed to support completely changes at the state levels and varies from state to state.

The best thing you can do is dispose of the notion of a single political spectrum and you will be a lot less shocked when you encounter something contrary to the propaganda designed to divide people.

[dahdum]

Miami has a free trolley service that is being actively expanded, supported by both sides of the aisle. It's paid by a sales tax directed towards transit projects, doesn't run up debt, and is widely popular. The idea being that boosting transit will increase job opportunities and economic activity, which will in turn raise more revenue via the sales tax.

South Florida in general is politically interesting, with a large amount of socially liberal yet fiscally conservative immigrants. Both parties are focused on economic development above all else.

[darksaints]

That's true, and Utah was the only Red state with anything close to a successful protest vote this last presidential election. Then again, the only meaningful difference between that candidate and Trump was that he was less vulgar and Mormon.

[dgzl]

I'm under the impression that the federal government knows this and actively tries to keep the population ignorant if their individual personalities. In America's violent culture, people see a massive red vs. blue battle and can't help but take a side.

[swebs]

I'd say it's more due to human nature to break complicated issues down to one dimension. Cameras have megapixels, computers have Flops, countries have some sort of "index" depending on what facet you're looking at, and politics has a single left/right value. Of course it's not very accurate, but that's the idea that's easiest to consume, and thus the one that propagates the most.

The 2-dimensional Political Compass is a huge improvement, but still isn't perfect. Reality is more complex and would require an N-dimensional political matrix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass

[justdeleteKanab]

http://birdsbeforethestorm.net/2016/10/lower-leftism-expandi...

^-- the most intriguing take on the political compass I've ever seen, albeit one with its own biases and issues (I'd replace feudalism with 'early human or tribal societies'). The main point was that it expanded beyond a strictly US view and I found the additional concept lines useful (Democracy line, inequality line, market line). It still runs into the same trouble trying to compress everything down into two dimensions does. Ideologies can end up next to each other that aren't very similar, which the end of the blog post acknowledged.

[blitmap]

Silver lining: We're united against those other people, lol. By politicians encouraging a divided, polarized atmosphere they've created a largely 2-party system (instead of a many-party system).

[mmanfrin]

I thing a larger factor is the Mormon Church/Mormon population. Utah has some strangely progressive economic policies like housing-first solutions to homelessness. Utah is a red state for sure, especially when it comes to social policies, but has the 'community' orientation that another commenter mentioned that public transit falls neatly in to.

[reaperducer]

A lot of Christians talk a big game about charity and such. But once I started becoming familiar with LDS folk, I was really impressed. They’re Christians in ways many other denominations only claim to be.

KSL-TV (LDS-owned NBC station) has an AppleTV app, and watching the SLC local news is far more interesting than I thought it would be. And there’s far less needless murder and mayhem plus more “good” news than is available in my market.

[billiam]

Sorry, I too know many LDS members and really love the SLC area and all the other incredible things in the state. While I like lots of things about the LDS community, the society there has many of the problems of Western states with lots of poverty, plus some that may be attributed to Mormon values: the highest rate of antidepressant use of any state, and the highest rate of cosmetic surgery. As for crime, the murder rate in Utah is similar to that of Idaho and higher than Massachusetts, Minnesota, and Connecticut.

[wwweston]

> plus some that may be attributed to Mormon values: the highest rate of antidepressant use of any state, and the highest rate of cosmetic surgery.

The perfectionist streak is real. The manifestation in cosmetic surgery is somewhat odd considering it's not explicitly taught (and has even been explicitly been panned). My own theory is that it's a weird combo of taking ideals seriously, religiously magnified & concentrated conscientiousness, and finally, heavily emphasizing the importance of having a mate and tying status to it.

However, I'm not sure the most ready explanation for any outlying antidepressant is oppressive religious expectations, outside of either some extra zealous backgrounds or key demographics like gay/lesbian individuals who are presented with a dilemma by the church that usually can't be resolved living inside church direction.

Given the famous abstinence from most common forms of self-medication (alcohol, weed, and tobacco), and a bit of a bent for being directed by authority, seems to me a good chunk of the difference is likely to essentially be displaced system-approved substance use.

[komali2]

>highest rate of anti depressant use

I could restate this positively as "highest rate of treated depression," so I'm wondering if it also has abnormally high rates of depression?

[swsieber]

Or even just abnormally high rates of depression treatment...

That said, I believe that there is other data showing there is other perscriptio drug abuse more prevelance than usual. If that's from increased depression, or merely from being an easier "bad" coping mechanism that's easier to hide, I'm not sure.

There are a lot of judgemental (self righteous?) Mormons in Utah. There are a lot of nice ones as well, though I think you'll find the ratio of nice to judgemental higher in other states.

My take on it? Being mormon has become somewhat cultural in Utah. It's not nearly so much elsewhere.

[tntn]

> plus some that may be attributed to Mormon values: the highest rate of antidepressant use of any state,

I won't dispute this, but I will mention some interesting hypotheses that indicate rates of depression are highly correlated with altitude.

[chrispeel]

For more on altitude and depression see https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/321219.php and https://www.livescience.com/50813-low-oxygen-increase-depres...

[paulddraper]

> the highest rate of antidepressant use of any state

I see that commonly mentioned.

What is not concurrently mentioned is that Utah is 48th for drug abuse [1], 48th for excessive drinking and 50th for alcohol-related driving deaths [2], and 50th for tobacco use [3].

Depression sucks, but anti-depressants are far, far safer (if not cheaper) than self-medicating with alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs.

[1] https://wallethub.com/edu/drug-use-by-state/35150/

[2] https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/08/these-america...

[3] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/65/wr/mm6539a1.htm#modalIdS...

[j88439h84]

Which of those are problems and which are solutions? How can you tell?

[nasredin]

You forgot pornography.

Utahns love porn.

Also all the crap LGBT Mormon kids go through.

[nobleach]

I wouldn't say Utahns "love porn", just that the study showed they're willing to PAY for it more than any other state.

[chooseaname]

By definition, there's only one way to be a Christian and LDS aren't Christians.

Pedantry aside, Christians are still human and thus succumb to sin and as such are not as charitable as they should be.

[JetSpiegel]

> there's only one way to be a Christian and LDS aren't Christians.

What? Do you mean Catholics? There are non-Catholic Christian churches, but they are still Christians.

[chooseaname]

I'm referring to their doctrine of salvation.

[TheCoelacanth]

That's an awfully broad claim considering that there are hundreds or thousands of branches of Christianity and many of them differ on what they believe to be necessary for salvation.

[RightMillennial]

True, but it's very possible for someone who's not technically Christian to be more "Christian". Not the theological aspect but the whole behavior part: "love thy neighbor", and not throwing out charitable works.

[dba7dba]

The thing with LDS is that it's more of an organization with a strong (aka oppressive? or too powerful) leadership at top. Every adult has to go on a 'mission' for a full year?

On the flip side, there is no such distinct leadership/requirements in most other Christian organizations. Pretty much anyone call self a Christian.

Maybe Catholics are similar to LDS but I'm not too familiar with them.

[rsweeney21]

Missions are 2 years for men, 1.5 years for women. It's optional for both men and women, but men are expected to go.

I went on a mission to Peru for 2 years. It was amazing, I have no regrets, but I wouldn't do it again. It was incredibly hard.

In contrast, I've started two modestly successful companies (one bootstrapped, one backed by $16M in VC money) and I'm working on starting my third. Startups are grueling, but not as grueling as a mission IMO. :)

[joeblas]

I too went on a 2 year mission in Ohio and I second the statement that it was incredibly hard but totally worth it.

[paulddraper]

And the missions are served by either young adults (18-25) or retirees.

I.e. at times that are minimally disruptive to careers, families, etc.

[ivanech]

Catholics are pretty different. The Catholic Church asks for less than the LDS (and most churches) at the local level, and it's quite a bit more hands-off. The higher levels of Catholic hierarchy looks like a medieval institution because it is a medieval institution. There is definitely set dogma, and the Church does not waver on it, but Catholics are generally quite comfortable being buffet Christians (choosing which bits to follow and which to disregard). I've met many more buffet Catholics than buffet Mormons.

[wwweston]

As far as I can tell, all Mormons are buffet Mormons. The ones that think they're not just usually aren't thinking about the rest of what's being served besides what they usually eat.

(Your point about relative comfort at this fact may remain true independent of this observation.)

[Osiris]

I've been an active member my whole life (38) and I've never even heard of "space doctrine". I looked it up and as far as I can tell, there are some theories by members of the Church but nothing from any current or former members of the Quorum of the Twelve or First Presidency, which is required for something to really be considered canon.

Just because some member of the Church believes or says something doesn't make it doctrine.

[tntn]

I'm curious what beliefs you have in mind that you notice are typically not thought about. (Not that I think they don't exist, I'm just curious what specifically you have in mind).

The LDS church has an interesting tiered conception of doctrine, wherein some things that have been taught by LDS prophets are not in fact official doctrine. People tend to ignore the "space doctrine" most of the time too.

[seanmcdirmid]

That is only true in the states and perhaps parts of Europe. Catholics in Latin America, Africa, and the Philippines are much less buffet.

[ivanech]

Very true! I should have specified that this applies for Catholics in the United States.

[dragonwriter]

> The higher levels of Catholic hierarchy looks like a medieval institution because it is a medieval institution.

Well, it's got pre-medieval, medieval, and post-medieval elements.

> There is definitely set dogma

Depending on who you believe (yes, there are actually doctrinal disputes over which doctrinal pronouncements are in fact dogmatic, though there are a handful of cases which are dogmatic and not in dispute as to that) there is between very little and extremely little definitively set dogma, though.

[taejo]

I think the fact that there is a distinction between doctrine and dogma, both of which exist, and with the boundary between them subject to serious scholarly debate, just shows how dogmatic/doctrinaire (which are synonyms in everyday non-Catholic English) the Catholic Church is.

[goda90]

The belief is that God speaks to the world through a prophet, like he did with Moses, and that he still actively does so to this day. The leadership at the top is established so that it can be certain who that prophet is, and not just anyone who claims it.

[specialist]

Homogeneity makes governance (consensus) a lot easier.

[sangnoir]

Only for those prone to hate or fear "the other" amongst them. There are countless heterogeneous, egalitarian jurisdictions where concern for "fellow citizen" - regardless of superficial differences, is enough to gain consensus: it's all about how you define the in-group and out-group.

[specialist]

We're talking about Utah here. They're able to do things, like address homelessness and prison reform, that "liberal" areas of the USA can only dream about.

[david-cako]

Mormons are the kindest and hardest working people in the country. They understand taking care of each other in ways no one else seems to, and I think that is most of the reason why Utah is so functional. Christians that actually act what they speak in nearly every way.

An aside, smog is really bad in Salt Lake due to its geography and that is probably one of the reasons they are taking this so seriously.

[vlunkr]

I’m happy to see so many positive comments about Mormons here. I usually don’t mention that I’m Mormon in online forums since I see mostly negativity about the church. (It’s just me being self-conscious) We’re certainly not perfect but we do try to look out our neighbors, I’m glad that’s recognized on the outside as well.

[Fezzik]

(As an Atheist) It bothers me to no end the amount of negativity that gets heaped on Mormons. From their immense early persecution[0] to being regularly ridiculed today, as a people they remain some of the kindest, most open-hearted, hard working people I know. And the sense of community that is stoked by them is tremendous. Sure, we all have issues, but as a group they are darn supportive of both each other and their communities. I, for one, admire that.

[0] read No Man Knows My History, for an historical perspective.

[dorfsmay]

As another atheist/naturalist, I always find interesting how members of one religion found the mythology of another religion "ridiculous" and worth making fun of, but want the mythology of their own religion to be taken seriously and as a truth.

[crispinb]

People live so much of their life in virtual worlds of media & thought that they confuse them with reality. So people will decide that they dislike Mormons (because everyone knows theism is dumb and antiscientific) or Muslims (because they're all terrorists), despite never having truly met any, having zero knowledge of their history, etc. The negative reactions you speak of aren't about Mormons or the church, they're about figments of sequestered imaginations, unconstrained by reality.

It's a shame. Real life is so much richer. In my real life I've often come across Mormon missionaries (in the past knocking at my door - not sure if they still do this?), and despite radical differences in view, have mostly had warm & engaging interactions.

[forapurpose]

Very well said, thank you; and of course it applies to almost every prejudice. It is indeed a shame.

[DanCarvajal]

As a someone who is not a Mormon (not even religious) I find the U.S.'s anti-Mormon bias to be very disappointing. My wife an I are planning a move to Salt Lake City while a lot of people talk about cities about the amenities and conveniences, the people are far more important and the people of Utah are a big part of why it's the place we want to raise a family.

[mholt]

Thanks for writing this -- I'm in the same boat. I'm not obvious about it (except maybe a mention in my Twitter bio or an occasional tweet) because I feel like mentioning my faith will taint people's perspective of me or my work. I am hopeful that there are quite a few people who can respect Mormons even if they don't agree with the tenets of the LDS church.

[trevordixon]

We certainly have our strengths, but also our own unique mix of sins.

[tallanvor]

> Mormons are the kindest

There is nothing kind about their treatment of the LGBT population in general, and LGBT youth in particular.

And if they were really that good at taking care of each other, I don't think that Utah would rank 5th in the nation for adolescent suicides (children 15 - 19 years) with a per capita suicide rate more than double the national average.*

They really do like to put on a good face, but their actions and the data says something rather different.

* https://www.statista.com/statistics/666791/states-with-highe...

[thousandautumns]

I won’t disagree that Mormons still have a ways to go regarding relations with the LGBT community, but if you have follow the Mormon church at all you’ve seen lots of progress in the last 10 years which continues to be made.

As for the suicide rate, you are making very careless and dangerous assumptions. Yes, it’s higher than most other areas. The reason for why is still very much unknown, and could be attributed in part to a wide variety of factors, ranging anywhere from demographics to the high altitude. Assuming it’s high because Mormons are awful people is baseless and clearly an instance of someone who has looking to confirm their biases.

If you are going to bring data into the conversation you should try and be more empirically minded about it.

[tallanvor]

The religion of suicide victims and their parents aren't tracked officially, but over 50% of the population of Utah identify as Mormon.

I am perfectly willing to accept that more rural areas tend to have higher suicide rates, and that is not necessarily going to be correlated with religion, but at the same time, 1/3 of the population lives in the SLC metro area, which should be a moderating influence on the state's suicide rate if this is the primary cause.

The only other statistic I know of regarding Utah that is an outlier over the US in general is the percentage of individuals who identify as Mormon. As such, a hypothesis that the higher adolescent suicide rate has something to do with religion is perfectly valid, although still only a hypothesis.

[saosebastiao]

Handwavy dismissals from Mormons about the high suicide rate all have one thing in common: they may explain higher than average baselibe levels, but they don't explain the growth. It is certainly plausible, and as empirical understandings improve, Mormonism is certainly being honed in on as a significant factor.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/10798286

[thedevil]

From the same publication, teen suicide rates are rising across the US:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/suicide-rates-teen-girl...

[saosebastiao]

And while the rate of child and teen suicide has risen by 23.5 percent nationally during the years covered by the study, it "more than doubled" (a 136 percent rise) in Utah, according to researchers from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

https://health.usnews.com/health-care/articles/2018-03-22/cd...

[ptero]

> A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system.

I do not see it this way. Communities with shared values (republican or democratic), usually find it easier to agree on and build public services that they find useful. Getting efficient, inexpensive transport that does not cost too much to the state is pretty easy to justify.

By the same token, most Republicans know that they will eventually get old, likely sick and finally die; thus they are not opposed to public healthcare as long as it is efficient and does not overburden public finances. However, they think (with some justification given past national federal projects) that if the US Federal government designs such a system it will be an inefficient and super costly monster pandering to special interests. And they are dead set against it.

[KallDrexx]

> By the same token, most Republicans know that they will eventually get old, likely sick and finally die; thus they are not opposed to public healthcare as long as it is efficient and does not overburden public finances. However, they think (with some justification given past national federal projects) that if the US Federal government designs such a system it will be an inefficient and super costly monster pandering to special interests. And they are dead set against it.

That's a pretty laughable statement. Tons of local government (town, city, state) projects are just as much (or more) over budget with massive special interest pandering as well. The Federal government is not unique in this aspect.

[bluGill]

If my town does something stupid I can move to the next town with little downside to my life (other than the cost of the move) - I can keep my existing friends. If my county does something stupid I can move, but the costs are higher. Moving states is higher cost, and countries is even higher (might even be impossible)

[ptero]

The fact that Federal government is not unique in wasting money is still not a reason to throw a ton of new money at it.

[cbluth]

> if the US Federal government designs such a system it will be an inefficient and super costly monster pandering to special interests

I think you described every government project to date.

[ptero]

And my point is that communities can do better. Small communities such as condo complexes collect and use money (often after a good yellout) for things that residents want (walkways, tennis courts, pools, shuttle buses, etc.) without mega waste.

The key property of this is that the costs are clear and must be paid directly by those who voted for a new functionality. LDS may be the glue that allows something similar at the city/state level in Utah.

[seanmcdirmid]

Salt Lake City is not a very conservative place. Yes, it is crazily Gerry mannered by pie slicing into a bunch of red congressional district, but SLC itself is fairly left of center just like any other big city in the west.

[uxp]

You're correct, however this article is about transportation in Utah County, aka Happy Valley.

[bcatanzaro]

Utah is actually one of the most urban states in the country - this 2012 article explains that 90% of Utah’s people live on 1% of the land. Within Utah’s urban areas, population density is in the top 10 in the United States at 2737 people per square mile. Although I’d love to see some updated numbers, there has been a lot of sprawl since 2012.

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=53794385&itype=cmsi...

It’s true that the state is empty, but it’s actually a better candidate for transit than one would think, because the Wasatch Front, where 2M people live, is small geographically.

[ngngngng]

With our air quality here, eventually can't come soon enough. I'd love to have a single family car and use public transit daily, but for right now I sacrificed that to live out in the middle of nowhere but still be able to find software jobs easily.

[jorblumesea]

Utah is something like 60% Mormon, and Mormons are really big on community, helping others and many other "socialist" ideas. They are conservative in many ways but progressive in some.

[tntn]

> caused by mountains to the east and the west

And very lax emissions regulations and oil refineries in the middle of everything.

[AnimalMuppet]

You should have seen it in the 1970s, before they cleaned up the Kennicott smelter. There were days when, from the east bench, it looked like you could walk across the top of the inversion to the Oquirrh Mountains.

[DamnInteresting]

> Hopefully a Trax expansion or equivalent in Utah county will happen eventually.

In Orem (Utah County) the city is building dedicated bus lanes in the center of University Parkway; my guess is that this is a precursor to Trax rails down the line (so to speak).

[duxup]

It's frustrating that transportation is such a target by Republicans. I can't see much reason for it but clearly it is some sort of "thing" where lately it is emphasized heavily to disrupt or target transportation systems for defunding.

[adventured]

> A deeply red/Republican and relatively low-density state might seem like a strange place to find a functional public transit system.

To add to the list, Texas is going to be the first state in the US to have a proper high-speed rail system, and it's actually going to be very affordable to build.