[Sukotto]

  >that's going a bit too far into the dystopian realm.

Imagine it's the year 1999 and someone tells you what flying in 2018 will be like.

I expect you'd say the exact same thing. And yet here we are. :(

People will get used to any degrading inconvenience if you claim it's for their own good and are willing to pay a lot of money to get the initial momentum going.

[freq_flyer_]

Are we that far off? Granted, I was still in high school in 1999, but I fly pretty frequently for work now and while it is different on it's surface, it doesn't feel that different overall.

I think part of that is the fact that the TSA is so bad at their jobs that it feels like a joke going through it. The worst part is that they know that they are a joke -- they freely admit that they miss between 70%-80% of weapons passing through.

[poulsbohemian]

Here's the worst part about it - if you are TSA-pre, it's really no different than travel in the '80s or '90s - you keep all your gear on, walk through a metal detector. Takes about 30 seconds. On the other hand, if you didn't pay for TSA-pre, then it could be an hour+ worth of waiting in line to go through a degrading and yes incompetently administered experience.

So to my thinking it isn't even the dystopian aspect of big brother watching and prodding, it's the further disgust of big brother separating the haves and have nots. Some animals are more equal than others.

[amf12]

> if you are TSA-pre, it's really no different than travel in the '80s or '90s - you keep all your gear on, walk through a metal detector. Takes about 30 seconds.

And here's the kicker, you can get TSA pre by paying for premium seats. At this point having non-pre passengers having to take their laptops, shoes and jackets off is just a way to inconvenience us and has nothing to do with security.

[skgoa]

It has always been security theater. It's meant to make people feel like a lot is being done for their security.

[wool_gather]

> it's really no different than travel in the '80s or '90s

Don't forget that getting TSA Pre involves an in-person background check interview (complete with fingerprinting). There's no escape; you just get to decide if you want to pay to have a "not a criminal" permanent file created for you, or be treated like a criminal for free, repeatedly and in small doses.

[godelski]

Innocent until proven guilty, right?

[inetknght]

Imagine how the kids of today will feel about the lack of internet privacy tomorrow.

Growing up without something really makes you not know what you're missing; if you don't know what you're missing, it won't feel so awful when you don't have it.

[sametmax]

They have no idea what privacy mean. They upload their all life on internet.

The problem with privacy is not that people try to take it away. It's that most people don't care.

[buth_lika]

I think it will feel awful, but in ways people cannot articulate and will blame themselves for.

A tiger born in a cage who experiences nothing but being fed every now will behave and feel very much worse than a free one. Children who were never treated with respect and never saw anyone else treated with respect don't suffer less harm in their development just because they don't know the difference.

I think at some very basic level, privacy is an obligatory requirement of becoming an individual person. An important part of the person grows when reflecting, when being alone with one's conscience, that's just as necessary as facing others. If you get all of either and none of the other, there's going to be a price.

Or take lead for example, if we increased our average exposure by a lot, that wouldn't mean that it now doesn't damage our central nervous system and organs anymore, not even for those who never knew lower levels of exposure. You can have the negative consequences without awareness of what is going on, and without any means to make it better.

A lot of the pressures already get relieved by consumerism at best, cruelty towards victims and identification with abusers at worst -- instead of being channeled towards the causes, it gets channeled towards what will make it worse. I think the rock bottom of that would a world unrecognizable even to Edgar Allan Poe.

[bnjms]

I was in junior high in 1999 and boarding is immensely different. You could go with your family to the gate or meet them upon arrival. I recall running down the exit to meet my grandparents as a child. I hear there are passes available but the feel now is all wrong.

Why no one set off a bomb in a TSA cattle line I cannot understand. USA built a perfect target. I assume the TSA is some sort of jobs program but I cannot understand who benefits from it.

[kasey_junk]

In many airports they’ve started using contract workers for line management, machine support, etc.

Those contract workers come from giant firms like Aramark.

[ridgeguy]

I flew when I could exit a departure lounge and walk up mobile stairs to enter the aircraft with no screening whatsoever. Like, none.

Yeah, it feels really different.

[jalk]

Domestic or are you talking about the sixties here?

[ridgeguy]

Both.

[notzuck]

By flying I assume you mean flying in the USA because I don't have any issues with Australia, Asia or Europe.

[jakobegger]

Having to throw away your water bottle at security is ridiculous.

Buying something in the duty free shop, only to have them take it away at the next airport on connecting flights.

On some flights they don't even serve drinks anymore (unless you pay). Great recipe for dehydration.

Seats are so cramped that more and more people suffer from thrombosis after flying.

There's no space for your hand luggage because the airline charges extra for checked baggage and everyone takes the biggest suitcase they are allowed to take on the plane.

Ridiculous forms you need to fill out online (hoping you don't fall for a scam website), where you can pay only by credit card (not so common in many countries), just to fly through a country that is visa free? Flying via US or Canadian airports has become a major hassle...

Flying used to be different.

I remember that on one flight you could just walk to the front, and watch the pilots fly the plane through the open cockpit door.

[tomcooks]

Unrequested advice: drink your bottle, pass security with it, refill your bottle at any fountain, bar, toilet after security.

If you're dehydrated tell a hostess, free water will be provided (costs them a lot less than being sued).

[wil421]

I just empty my water bottle before the security line. Take the top off when it goes through the X-ray and fill it up after.

[secfirstmd]

Yes that's my flying hack

[lazerwalker]

> On some flights they don't even serve drinks anymore (unless you pay). Great recipe for dehydration.

Flights that don't serve free drinks tend to be (at least in my experience) SUPER cheap budget airlines. In the bygone age of luxurious leisurely air travel, you weren't flying from San Francisco to San Diego for $50 or from Paris to Barcelona for 30€.

[oblio]

> Flying used to be different.

Yeah, it was. Expensive.

[dredmorbius]

Not in the period under consideration, and a generally overstated case regardless.

Robert Gorden in The Rise and Fall of American Growth:

surprisingly, the period of most rapid decline in the real price of air travel occurred before the first flight of a jet plane. As shown in figure 11–10, the price of air travel relative to other goods and services declined rapidly from 1940 to 1960, declined at a slower rate from 1960 to 1980, and has experienced no decline at all in its relative price between 1980 and 2014. The growth rate of passenger miles traveled has mirrored the rate of change of the relative price except with the opposite sign, because lower prices stimulate the demand for any good or service.

[masonic]

In total, perhaps. But deregulation had a huge effect on the cost of major long-haul routes with multiple competing airlines (e.g. LAX-JFK).

[yesforwhat]

and inaccessible to the majority of people

[bena]

> I remember that on one flight you could just walk to the front, and watch the pilots fly the plane through the open cockpit door.

And sadly, that's the only change that matters. Cockpits are now closed and locked.

[masonic]

  I remember that on one flight you could just walk to the front, and watch the pilots fly the plane through the open cockpit door

That changed in the USA even before 2001, at least by typical policy if not statute.

I recall a trip in the late 1990s flying Aur Canada (maybe YYZ-SFO) and while in Canadian airspace, I was invited in right behind the copilot to hang out for 20 minutes or so. I was surprised how much air traffic could be seen just with the naked eye.

[raydev]

Can your family give you a hug just as you enter the gate to board your plane? Because that's how it was before 9/11 in the States.

[fma]

You can request a companion pass from some airlines. I know Delta allows it...one of th budget ones do t (Spirit?)

Essentially you ask their service desk for a companion pass and tbeu run your ID and print you our a ticket to go through security. I use it because I have family that do not speak English test visits me and I walk them to their gate...but if you just want a hug you can, they don't need a reason to issue one.

But I understand what you are saying, and the ability to be at the gate to drop off or meet domestic passengers brought back old memories.

[stephenr]

Domestically?

Last time I flew in Australia domestic flights allowed non-passengers up to the waiting area, yes.

[ceejayoz]

Flew domestically in Australia two days ago, and yep - no boarding passes needed for security. Liquids fine, no taking off shoes, no queue (and not even space for one to form). Like a whole different world.

[SmellyGeekBoy]

Yes, the security aspect is ridiculous (and more than likely completely unnecessary) but also bear in mind that airports are busier than ever. If everyone flying took an average of one person to the gate with them, that's twice as many people in the airport. Most I've passed through lately (Europe and Asia) have been crowded as it is.

[vanadium]

I remember those days very, very well.

[gaius]

In 1999 I had bags in the hold but had to respond to a page, by the time I had resolved the incident I had missed the flight. I was super-stressed but the check-in girl just laughed and said, get the next one, it’s fine. And it was. Can you imagine that now?

[jalk]

Yes that is very common, unless you buy the cheapest tickets available. I'm sure people in 1999 would be shocked to learn that a ticket from Berlin to London is available for around 50 USD if you don't have luggage and expect to actually board the planes you have booked.

[saiya-jin]

Yeah, you get quantity, and lose quality. I've been overbooked few times (so sorry, please fly tomorrow unless we overbook you again, we don't care what this causes for your plans/further travel, and here go through crazy online forms and month-long process just to get those 250 euro you are entitled to by EU law).

Or cancelling flights for 'bad weather' reason, when all other flights departed just fine from the airport - in this case, airline doesn't have to compensate anything (freakin' Easyjet - I realized I am not rich enough and don't have enough extra vacation to use such a crappy random-quality services).

[JadeNB]

> In 1999 I had bags in the hold but had to respond to a page, by the time I had resolved the incident I had missed the flight. I was super-stressed but the check-in girl just laughed and said, get the next one, it’s fine. And it was. Can you imagine that now?

It actually literally happened to me in November 2001, even for an international flight: I missed my flight due to a 3-hour line at MDW, but my luggage had already boarded. I was assured by everyone concerned that it would be offloaded, but it flew ahead, and was (somewhat miraculously) still waiting for me at the luggage claim when I got there over 12 hours later.

[thecopy]

Sure, happened to me last year in Europe.

[gaius]

They flew bags in the hold for a passenger who had checked in but not boarded?

[Piskvorrr]

Happens pretty often - by accident, that is. My luggage went on a trip all of its own (someone loaded it into a plane bound elsewhere than I was going), so I was peppered by e-mails where it's now for the next few days, while it was misrouted to all sorts of weird places "oops, lost it again! no wait, there it is! no wait, lost it again!". Got it back at last, no damage.

[SmellyGeekBoy]

Why not? It's been through the same security as everything else, including all the air freight that's also on board that nobody seems to think about. Usually they'll offload it as a convenience for the passenger but not always if time doesn't allow.

[pjmlp]

Yep, it happened to me during a Lufthansa strike a couple of years ago.

They distributed us and our luggage across a couple of planes flying out to Vienna.

My luggage arrived on an earlier flight and had to hear from the Austrian police, while I explained that it was Lufthansa's own doing.

[leesalminen]

Happened to me on a domestic flight in the US this year on American Airlines.

[astura]

Yes?? This happens literally all the time. What's to be surprised about?

[SmellyGeekBoy]

Yes? It's fairly common.

[gammateam]

Domestic flights in Australia don't even ask for ID consistently. I don't think they have to

[chucksmash]

You can board a flight in the United States without ID as well, though I'm not sure you're strictly allowed to.

This happened to me in 2007. Arrived at a regional airport at 6am bleary eyed and without my wallet. Had to jump through some hoops and I assume some regulations might have been bent/broken but I made my flight. Someone made a judgment call and waved me through.