[tanbog]

Maybe part of the issue is an over-emphasis on "fidelity". People have always played around - or to be frank, many women have been assaulted and had to keep it quiet - maybe the best outcome would be more open communication and understanding between couples rather than even more prescriptive social norms about how relationships should work.

[1000units]

You word this as if married women being inseminated by other men isn't in the vast majority of cases an unintended consequence of completely intentional behavior. Your "being frank" is framing an incredibly rare situation as primary.

[mirimir]

It's not so much about fidelity as honesty.

[1000units]

In any case, getting raped isn't a breach of fidelity.

[mirimir]

Never said that.

Edit: But I gotta say that I'd expect my wife to share if she'd been raped. And especially if she had gotten pregnant, and had chosen to have the child. Without that level of honesty in a marriage, there arguably isn't actually a marriage. That may seem harsh, I know. But hey, I got it from Landmark. For what it's worth, while responsibility and honesty are considered key values, there is no blame.

[kukx]

No. If one was raped it should be reported and the perpetrator should be prosecuted. You cannot let these people go unpunished and potentially rape others.

[toomanybeersies]

That is a vastly simplistic view of rape and sexual assault and comes very close to victim blaming. In many societies there is a stigma attached to sexual assault victims, even in western society many victims get blamed: "why was she wearing that dress?", "why was she in the club on her own if she was in a relationship?", "why did she walk through the park at night on her own?", "maybe she went home with him and just regretted it the next day".

As terrible as it is, for some people the best way to handle their trauma is to never speak of it and pretend it never happened. Going to the police can cause all sorts of problems, as you have to relive the trauma as you fill out your victim statement, as you go to court, as everyone around you feels pity, like you're damaged goods.

[Bromskloss]

> "why was she wearing that dress?", "why was she in the club on her own if she was in a relationship?", "why did she walk through the park at night on her own?"

To call these things "victim blaming" is disingenuous, I think, because it makes it sound like someone is saying that you are guilty of rape (of yourself) if you do those things. Instead, we need to separate between two acts: rape, and subjecting yourself to danger (danger of rape, in this instance). The latter is not a crime and does not make you an accomplice of the rape, and it does not take any guilt of the rapist, but it might still be stupid and blameworthy on its own, as a separate act, even if it ends well and no rape occurs. I mean, my loved ones surely would be upset with me if I subjected myself to excessive danger, or just neglected to lock my door when I left home.

The danger in question does not even have to be related to a crime. It could be recklessly climbing a mountain or a scaffold. In that case, it certainly not about taking responsibility of a wrong from a criminal and putting it on the victim – because there is no such wrong – but blame might still be reasonable.

> "maybe she went home with him and just regretted it the next day"

This falls in neither of the above two categories. It is just a hypothesis that has to be taken into account like any other.

[kukx]

I doubt that "for some people the best way to handle their trauma is to never speak of it and pretend it never happened" is actually true. I would like to see some study that proves that.

Otherwise you just empower the rapists for no justifiable reason.

And even if there is some personal net benefit for not telling anyone. Is it more important than saving others from potentially the same harm?

[qubex]

Has it occurred to you that maybe one of the root causes of so-called ”rape culture” is that would-be rapists do indeed feel thusly empowered?

[kukx]

But is there a "rape culture"? I mean there are criminals that commit rape. But what are the reasons to call it a culture. As far as I know, the rape, at least in the western world, is perceived as a terrible thing and is punished by law.

[qubex]

I’m not American. I just hear the term bandied about a lot (including by my equally-foreign, US-college educated fiancée, who has regaled me with several horror stories relating to young women on her campus).

[1000units]

No, certainly not. The threat of serious legal reprisal deters criminals of all sorts, including rapists.

[lawlessone]

Most rape trials fail to secure a conviction though, and that's when it's actually reported, majority of cases are not.

>The threat of serious legal reprisal deters criminals of all sorts

And yet we have plenty of crime..

[paidleaf]

> even in western society many victims get blamed:

No they don't. Which western society? In western society ( US for example ), we presume the alleged victim is telling the truth and the accused is guilty. In western society, we release the name of the accused and protect identity of the alleged victim. Even when the courts find out that the accuser lied, her name is withheld and protected.

Don't know which "western society" you are from, but in the US, it's usually the accused, not the alleged victim, that suffer, whether the rape happened or not.

> "why was she wearing that dress?", "why was she in the club on her own if she was in a relationship?", "why did she walk through the park at night on her own?"

What? This is simply a lie. You know it.

> "maybe she went home with him and just regretted it the next day".

Because we have cases of this happening. Remember the mattress girl from columbia? We have a few high profile cases of women consensually having sex with guys and then regretting it later and then falsely accusing the men of rape.

I'm tired of the false narrative of rape and rape society of the west. Does rape happen in the west. Sure. Are rape cases prosecuted. Yes. Are rape victims ( and even false accusers ) protected. Yes. But stop lying about how we shame or attack rape victims. Maybe in the 1800s, but not today.

[simonh]

> What? This is simply a lie. You know it.

I have personally heard people say things like this, particularly older women, some of them in my own family. This sort of attitude was even pretty commonly stated in the media only a few decades ago. Please retract that accusation of lying and apologise immediately.

[paidleaf]

> This sort of attitude was even pretty commonly stated in the media only a few decades ago.

So not today? A few decades ago? We are talking about western society today, not in the past.

> Please retract that accusation of lying and apologise immediately.

Why would I retract a correct statement and apologise for being honest and truthful? Why are you asking me to apologize when your response actually backed up my assertion?

[simonh]

What is the matter with you? I said in the media, but first gave current personal testimony.

Attitudes like that are much less tolerated in public discourse nowadays, but people very much do hold such oppinions and will express them in private. Most of the people saying this in public media a few decades ago are still alive and still hold these views, but just have less of a platform. I will say again - I have heard people say things like that myself.

Your accusation of lying was wholly uncalled for and manifestly untrue. The fact that you’re doubling Down on it is frankly pretty shocking.

[marchenko]

>> "why was she wearing that dress?", "why was she in the club on her own if she was in a relationship?", "why did she walk through the park at night on her own?"

>What? This is simply a lie. You know it.

This statement is highly uncharitable to your interlocutor above and frankly ignorant of the history of sexual assault prosecutions in the US. There has been a longstanding and documented strategy of defense attorneys trying to paint the alleged victim unsympathetically to try to elicit a just world theory-based response: "she was engaged in dangerous behaviour - that couldn't happen to someone like me".

It is important to distinguish the high-profile Title 9/social media kangaroo courts with the workings of the actual US justice system.

[paidleaf]

> This statement is highly uncharitable to your interlocutor above and frankly ignorant of the history of sexual assault prosecutions in the US.

Once again, we are talking about western society today, not in history. I already acknowledged in my comment that things were different in the past.

> "she was engaged in dangerous behaviour - that couldn't happen to someone like me".

Once again, a foreigner pushing "rape culture" rhetoric about the US and sowing divisions. Just curious, if you aren't american, why are you posting about it as if you were american?

> It is important to distinguish the high-profile Title 9/social media kangaroo courts with the workings of the actual US justice system.

I wasn't just talking about title IX or social media. I was talking about media, the courts and society in general. When a woman accuses a man of rape, she is believed and the man is scorned - even before trial. Stop trying to paint the US today as it was in the past or the congo.

[toomanybeersies]

What makes you think marchenko is not a US citizen?

Regardless, my original comment said "Western Culture", not "American Culture". Here in Australia I have definitely seen comments and heard people victim blame rape victims for their behavior. Don't try and say that it's only an Australian thing, for sure it happens in the USA too.

Why would you accuse me of lying?

[paidleaf]

> People have always played around

Most people don't "play around". We have statistic proof about it.

> or to be frank, many women have been assaulted and had to keep it quiet

I'm pretty sure most of the 23andme customers are in the US and not in the congo. By "many" women, you mean almost no women right?

> maybe the best outcome would be more open communication and understanding between couples rather than even more prescriptive social norms about how relationships should work.

Opening communication and understanding are the prescriptive social norm. You make it seem like cheating and rape is the norm. Also, most people agree on how relationships should work. That's how we got "prescriptive social norms".

[Bedon292]

I am not sure over 300,000 women a year in the US is 'almost no'. That sure looks like many to me. With an estimate of somewhere in the 7-12,000 a year having children as a result. And something like 1 in 6 having been raped in their life time. Yes those are estimates, but still a significant number.

Edit Source: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

[paidleaf]

> I am not sure over 300,000 women a year in the US is 'almost no'.

We were talking about women getting raped, impregnated and having children unbeknownst to the father. That was the "almost no" I was talking about.

> With an estimate of somewhere in the 7-12,000 a year having children as a result.

An "estimate". Fine. There are about 4 million births in the US every year.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/195908/number-of-births-...

So I'm gonna stick to "almost no" here.

> And something like 1 in 6 having been raped in their life time. Yes those are estimates, but still a significant number.

More estimates? By whom? Let me guess, an organization dedicated to inflating numbers?

> Edit Source: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

Of course. I no more trust "estimates" from rainn than I do climate change "estimates" from exxon.

As I said, we were talking about women getting raped, impregnated and having children unbeknownst to the father. You turned that discussion into a stealth argument about "rape culture".

OP asserted that "many" spouses of "cuckolded" fathers were a result of rape. It was a very specific assertion. I responded to that, not anything about rapes in general.

Why is every response on this thread pushing the "rape narrative" here? I think that 1 rape is too many, but that wasn't what we are talking about? Why inject politics into this?