[vsdzvgfWE]

> he had a knack for hiring and inspiring world class talent

Never said the guy didn't have any good traits. Obviously, Apple and NeXT had lots of great people work there.

> I'd work for anyone with that ability.

Yeah you lost me. I won't work for someone who can't admit fault and treats their employees like dirt. I don't care how good they are at convincing people to work for them.

You should have priorities in your life. "Not being abused" should be higher than "being able to say you've worked with the greatest talent."

[GoRudy]

I think i'm personally willing to make some concessions on personality in exchange for doing something like building the future. Does the end justify the means, sometimes?

Kind of like the instructors at my workout classes, I don't always like them, they're not always that nice but they definitely make me better.

[vsdzvgfWE]

The instructors may be tough, in order to motivate you. But there's a difference between being tough and being mean. I would imagine your instructors wouldn't talk down to you outside of class.

Working for an abusive boss can seriously take a toll on your mental health.

And then the thing you get in return - building the future. You think that will make you happy. But I know people who have a long list of accomplishments, who are deeply unhappy, because of the crushing work schedule and toxic people they work for. And in the end, the future you build may not be what you hoped. You wake up and realize you sacrificed your wellbeing all for a phone app or a new piece of adtech.

It's just not worth it. There are plenty of places where you can impact your industry and not be treated like shit. Your dignity is worth more than that.

[WalterBright]

Oddly, I've never heard any stories of people standing up to Jobs. They just stand there and take it. What was the worst he or any boss could do? Fire you? So what. Quitting is not your only option.

[scarface74]

There are plenty. Two that are often cited is bringing iTunes to Windows.

https://www.cultofmac.com/507493/apple-history-itunes-window...

And Forstall convincing Jobs to add the Carbon API to OS X.

[WalterBright]

What I was thinking was more along the lines of "Steve, don't talk to me that way." That's different from getting him to change his mind.

[alain94040]

Jony Ive did and the answer, while surprising, contains a grain of truth.

https://www.cultofmac.com/299383/steve-jobs-called-jony-ive-...

[WalterBright]

I don't see it in the text of the article. Can you quote what you specifically are talking about?

[tk75x]

I remember having a conversation with [Steve] and I was asking why it could have been perceived that in his critique of a piece of work he was a little harsh. We’d been working on this [project] and we’d put our heart and soul into this, and I was saying, ‘Couldn’t we … moderate the things we said?’

And he said, ‘Why?’ and I said, ‘ Because I care about the team.’ And he said this brutally, brilliantly insightful thing, which was, ’No Jony, you’re just really vain.’ He said, ‘You just want people to like you, and I’m surprised at you because I thought you really held the work up as the most important, not how you believed you were perceived by other people.’

I was terribly cross, because I knew he was right.”

- End of the first paragraph, Jony Ive says to be nicer. - Next paragraph Steve shuts him down.

edited for formatting.

[batteryhorse]

What about when Burrell Smith was going to quit by urinating on Jobs' desk?

https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&stor...

[WalterBright]

Steve challenged him. Burrell caved and walked out instead of standing up.

[briandear]

Standing up to Jobs happened all the time. But if you were going to do it, you had better have brought your A game.

[chrisbennet]

Totally agree. There is a reason this sort of thing happens though.

Some people (like yourself) have more of a sense of agency than others. It's not my cup of tea but some people prefer to implement the goals of others ("be part of something bigger"). Sometimes they get sucked in by abusive leaders.

[sumedh]

> "Not being abused" should be higher than "being able to say you've worked with the greatest talent."

There are people who say that working under Jobs was the best work they ever did.