[raverbashing]

People conflate statistics with actual results more often than not and I think those reporting on such stories and maybe even the original authors might fall for this.

It was not wrong to say Hillary had a 95% chance of winning the presidential election, but the confidence was low and that value still allowed for the opposite result to happen.

Also football has a lot of variance concerning team capability and end results. The better team might (and does) lose often, especially when going to penalty shoots.

With basketball, the stronger team will be easily scoring more in most cases.

[corpMaverick]

According to 538 Hillary had a 70% chance. Yes. Many people completely interpreted that like 70% would vote for Clinton. I had to explain the meaning of "70% chance" to people who should know better. I think they just heard the number and didn't give it a second thought.

[afterburner]

In general, people don't think.

[ghaff]

Basketball has a lot of points scored so one or two freak plays or lucky bounces aren't likely to affect an outcome. And there are a lot of games so even a star player having an off night or two isn't likely to affect the outcome of a season.

[kgwgk]

> had a 95% chance [...] but the confidence was low

So she had 95% chance of winning with 50% probability or what?

[fny]

So this is something that people don't seem to grok quite well, and it really depends on the type of statistical analysis used.

Say you make the assumption that the quantity being estimated is truly fixed: that there's some true value for the force of gravity or some true value for the number of people that vote for X or Y.

The second assumption that comes along is that the stochasticity observed comes from your perspective of observation, and not from the ground truth. To be more blunt, you know that of all the observations you make 95% of them have the probability of yielding the result observed... but the ground truth is still fixed. Gravity has a fixed quantity, despite your experimental error, and you may have been lucky enough to observe it in your sample.

Predicting elections with frequentist methods has this same characteristic, except the observed quantity itself shapeshifts and even lies... so then there are other complications that need to be dealt with.

This is where that 50% feeling comes from. There are two outcomes, one will be true. You're data analysis just tells you that if you repeat your procedure, you'd expect 95% of those result to give you the outcome you observed.

[kgwgk]

If you expect to get it right (in this particular prediction, Clinton to win) with 95% probability, what does it mean to say that this 95% is with low confidence or with high confidence?

[thousandautumns]

Not OP, but that opens a whole different can of worms. “Confidence” has a specific meaning in the context of statistical theory, and specifically in a particular flavor of statistics called “frequentism”. I won’t get into what is involved in frequentism, and how it differentiates itself from the alternative, Bayesianism, but essentially “confidence” refers to a measure that really says more about the statistical methodology used to arrive at the estimated value (in this case, that Hillary had a 95% chance of winning) than the value itself. This makes is a bit esoteric and something that people misinterpret all the time.

Basically, confidence refers to a hypothetical scenario in which a the data gathering process were to be repeated and the same analysis done, X% of the confidence intervals (essentially, the +/- bounds around your estimate) will contain the true value for what you are trying to estimate.

So in this hypothetical scenario, we say we have the power to go back in time and recollect the polling data in 2016 and run the same analysis used to arrive at that 95% number. And let’s say we use this power over and over again, a very large number of times. Then 95% of the error bounds we construct should contain the true value of the probability Hillary wins, whatever that is.

The thing is that those error bounds can be huge. You can have 95% confidence that the probability that Hillary wins is between 3% and 98%, for example. You can also have 10% confidence that the probability of a Hillary win is between 94% and 96%. Without the confidence intervals, a “confidence level” doesn’t say much. It’s also predicated on the assumption you haven’t screwed up your data collection process or analysis methodology. And if you are predicting something will occur with a probability of 95%, and it doesn’t, that doesn’t automatically mean you are wrong, but the likelihood of you having screwed something up is definitely higher.

[kgwgk]

I agree that this is a different can of (nasty) worms.

The message I replied to said that > It was not wrong to say Hillary had a 95% chance of winning the presidential election,

Frequentist inference cannot be interpreted as a probability unless one goes through some (often misunderstood, as you pointed out) contortions. In your scenario where you have 95% confidence of something it would be wrong to say that Clinton had a 95% chance of winning.

[sobani]

The way I see it (as someone who knows nothing about statistics), confidence would be the difference between 9/10 vs 900/1000. And/or how much effort you spend ramming a square peg in a round hole to have a prediction model.

You have a lot of data about donkeys vs elephants. But this contest is between a mule and a mammoth. If you assume a mule is equivalent to a donkey and a mammoth is equivalent to an elephant, the mule has 95% odds in its favor. But you recognize the assumptions so your prediction doesn't have a high confidence.

[LeifCarrotson]

There are two probabilities in question: The first, of course, is the probability of victory. The second is the probability that the first probability is correct.

Consider: If someone offered to give you $2 every time a fair coin toss came up heads, or take $0.50 every time it came up tails, you'd be foolish not to take that bet a million times as you can because you know that the coin has exactly a 50% chance of coming up heads.

However, if it was an unfair coin, you'd want to know the degree to which it was unfair, and you'd have to measure it. How much do you trust those measurements? You might say that you're 90% sure that the coin has a 40-60% chance of coming up heads, or give a probability of 2% that a $1.04 to $0.96 wager would be profitable while a $1.03 to $0.97 wager would be unprofitable.

Hillary had a 95% chance to win the election. But on top of the fact that 1 in 20 times she'd lose that election if that really was the probability, the 95% number was uncertain because the measurements were difficult to pin down - maybe she'd have lost 1 in 40 times, or maybe she'd have lost 1 in 5 times. All we know now is that she lost, and that many of the assumptions and measurements the pollsters had to make concerning factors like voter turnout, nationalism, corruption, foreign interference, debate results, and fundraising turned out to be inaccurate.

With unfair coin measurements, you can get very accurate numbers with just a handful tests. When predicting election results or World Cup games, you're much less likely to make an accurate estimate. The confidence is an estimate of how likely that estimate is to be accurate.

[kgwgk]

There are two probabilites is you want to make it so in your model. In the coin example it may make sense, you model the coin as a binomial probability and you can estimate it. You can repeat the events, it makes sense to talk about frequencies and you can improve your estimate of the parameter.

In the election model it's not clear to me what's to gain by saying that there are two probabilities (or more) instead of one. There is one single event.

>Hillary had a 95% chance to win the election. But on top of the fact that 1 in 20 times she'd lose that election if that really was the probability,

Which is the only thing that matters if we say that the probability was 95%.

> the 95% number was uncertain because the measurements were difficult to pin down - maybe she'd have lost 1 in 40 times, or maybe she'd have lost 1 in 5 times.

You have lost me here. Did she have a 95% chance to win or not?

If this 95% is uncertain, because it could have been 97.5% or 80%, then the probability would be the weighted average of those numbers and not 95%. And if it was so uncertain that nothing was known at all it would be 50%.

Consider the following cases:

a) You are going to flip a coin that I know is completely fair. I would say that the probability of heads if 50%.

b) You have flipped a coin that I know is completely fair. Nobody knows what has been the result. I would say that the probability of heads is 50%.

c) You have flipped a coin that I know is completely fair. You know the result but I don't. I would say that the probability of heads is 50%.

In some cases you would say that I'm 100% right on my assesment of the probability being 50% while in others the actual probability is either 100% (with probability 50%) or 0% (with probability 50%). This seems irrelevant as far as my statement about the probability being 50% is concerned.

[frockington]

60% of the time, it works every time - Brian Fantana

[raverbashing]

it is captured in the 95% but that was probably a bit overestimated (and there are always unknown biases and improbable events can happen)

What's wrong is thinking 95% chance of winning means they will win

[kgwgk]

So it was not captured in the (overestimated) 95% :-) But I agree, the most likely thing, even if the probability was perfectly known, is not always what happens.

[thousandautumns]

Sort of. The problem is people get confused about the same statistical methodology they use in other situations when the measure they are estimating is also a percentage.

For example, if you are estimating the height of a male in the US, you would collect data on US males and get the average. But unless you surveyed every male in the US, there is some error associated with your estimate. So you would either construct error bounds (a frequentist approach) or a probability distribution (a Bayesian approach) around the mean height. So your results may dictate that the mean height of the American male is 5’11, plus or minus 2 inches. Those two inches represent uncertainty around your data collection. That’s the exact same thing that is done here, but with a percentage instead of a height. Outlets may predict Hillary winning at 95%, but the reality is their methodology should provide a plus-minus value around that. The problem is that few of them actually report that.

But it gets more confusing. That error bound is only around the mean. Pick a random guy out and not only will he likely not be 5’11, there is a decent chance he will be outside of that range of 5’9 - 6’1. You will get 5’7 guys and 6’4 guys pretty commonly. In the case of the election, it may actually be true that Hillary had a chance between say, 93% and 97% of winning. But even if that is the case, she will still lose between 3-7% of the time. But since we only have one reality to observe, we can’t know if she lost simply because we saw that 3-7% realized, or because they people coming up with that number screwed up. That’s why groups like 538 deserve more leeway. When they say that Donald Truml has a 30% chance of winning, and he does. That’s not that crazy. And therefore there is much less reason to assume they screwed something up than the people who predicted a 5% chance of Trump winning. It’s possible those models were right, but much less so.